Do Salt-Free Water Softeners Really Work?

Do Salt-Free Water Softeners Really Work?
Posted in: Salt-Free Systems
By Mark Timmons
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Do Salt-Free Water Softeners Really Work?

I talk to many people each day, inside and outside the water industry, and the claims by many companies who are trying to sell salt-free, saltless or no-salt (call them what you will) are really confusing. Many are also not rooted in fact. I try to keep an open mind and I am receptive to new and improved technology, but it first has to pass the “smell” test. Devices that “cure” a plethora of water problems and “one size fits all” are dead give-aways to false claims. Let the buyer beware. Frankly, most do not do what they say. However, there is no reason to be confused. The German Technical and Scientific Association for Gas and Water (DVGW) has developed protocol for testing scale prevention properties of these types of devices. This testing protocol is called DVGW Standard W 512.

In order to be certified by this agency, a device must reach the threshold of being at least 80% efficient. There are several devices throughout the world which are certified as being at least 80% efficient, but to my knowledge, there is only one such device in the USA that achieves this level of efficiency, that being nextScaleStop manufactured by next Filtration Technologies, Inc. of Incline Village, Nevada and that is the salt free water conditioner US Water Systems handles, and it is sold under the brand name "Green Wave."

Remember this: Only a salt-based water softener “softens” water. If you like the “slick” feeling of soft water, you won’t like salt-free systems . Systems that really work without salt, “condition” the water by preventing it from sticking to any surface and one more thing that I think should be done that no magnetic or electronic water conditioning device can do, is to remove or reduce the hazardous chemicals like chlorine, THM’s, PCB’s, pesticides, tastes and odors – while leaving the beneficial minerals. This would be the “greenest” system on the market!

I would not be comfortable selling a product that wasn’t nearly 100% efficient at reducing scale and had the certification to prove it! No electronic or electro-magnetic process does that, but there is a process called Template Assisted Crystallization that does.

This would be a good time to review some blogs and discussions about salt free-systems. Here are some links:   PDF’s: no-salt-soft-factfiction-or-fantasy next-scale stop media To date, the only Salt-Free System in the USA that has passed the Stringent German Standard (DVGW-W512) is nextScaleStop media, used in Watts One-Flow and US WATER’s GreenWave systems.   Q. Do salt-free water softeners really work? - David M., Greenville, Ohio A. Well, I am going to have to assume that you are referring to electronic, magnetic or media devices that are purported to "condition" water. Notice, I did not say "soften" water. In my opinion, the only way you can "soften" water is by removing a "hard mineral" (calcium, magnesium) and replacing it with a "soft mineral" (sodium, potassium). Conditioning can be accomplished in a number of ways:
  1. Filtration - by removing sediment, silt and other contaminants the water is boing "conditioned."
  2. Carbon Filtration - by passing the water through a media containing carbon to remove chemicals and chlorine.
  3. Seed Crystalization - by using either electrical current, magnetic or media crystalization to form "seed crystals."
  4. Oxidation - by using chlorine, potassium permanagante, hrdrogen peroxide, ozone or oxygen to oxidize contaminants in the water.
Filtration, carbon filtration and oxidation are well-established methods of conditioning or treating water, so I will further assume that you are referring to the plethora of companies who are promoting "salt-free water conditioners." I will say that there is some validity to most of these methods, however companies or websites who say that they "soften" water without salt or make other prespoterous claims like "salt can be absorbed through the skin" or that electronic devices increase sudzing are not dealing in reality and should not be trusted. I always refer people to The BunkHouse - Gallery of water-Related Pseudoscience - Junk Science in the Marketplace - Check it out! While there are some fine products in this category of "water conditioning," there are also plenty of outright frauds and other companies selling products which have limited validity and application. How do you tell the difference? There's the rub... I can rely on my 36 plus years in the water conditioning industry and tell you that while I have always felt that electronic or magnetic water conditioning has some validity, no one can truly articulate or prove how. There is a protocal for testing and validating these types of water treatment devices and to date, no ecectronic or magnetic device in the United States has passed that certification. By the way, to be certified, the developer of ths protocal, called DVGW-12, has established that in order to meet the requirements, the device must be at least 80% efficient in preventing scale. Ask to see the certification of any device which claims to condition the water by any mechanical, electronic or magnetic means. To date, I know of no magnetic or electronic device that mets that criteria in the USA. My guess is that it means they cannot meet that minimum threshold of 80% efficiency in preventing scale. I never cease to be amazed by the claims that many of these companies make. Most of their claims have little basis in reality.
December 25, 2007
Comments
Bill Bode
February 3, 2008 at 8:20 AM
I did not see this technology addressed in your data. Is this something new or just another waste of money? Template Assisted Crystallization (TAC) Technology - the First Chemical-Free Scale Prevention Method Automatic Backwashing (every 14 days) Carbon Filter with KDF-55 for Extended Carbon Life & Most Efficient Operation Softens up to 85 GPG Lifetime Warranty Unlike the magnetic or electronic devices on the market today, the US Water/Next Scale Stop Salt-Free system really works and is backed with the Best Warranty in the Business and a 90 day Money-Back Guarantee. You have nothing to lose! Don't confuse this with the magnetic or electronic systems which can't come close to our performance! Systems that use “copycat medias” cannot come close to what our system does. They have to “rest” every few hours and are out of the question, especially in commercial applications. The GoGreen TAC technology has been tested under rigorous protocols by an independent lab to be over 99.6% efficient – most other companies have failed to submit to any testing whatsoever. You probably know why. The Science Behind
mark
February 4, 2008 at 8:20 AM
We have tested many scale prevention devices and any device that uses TAC (Template Assisted Crystallization) technology work exceptionally well at preventing scale. As a matter of fact, they are the only device tested and certifed as being efficient in preventing scale (they were tested at 99.6% efficient). I recommend them to anyone who wants to go Salt Free.
John
March 4, 2008 at 9:51 AM
I was looking for a "No-Salt" alternative to my regular salt added softener when I cam upon your site. I have a quick question for you; I am having problems with rust around the little holes in my clothes washer and the racks in my dishwasher keep rusting also. Is this due to my using too much salt and having the setting too high? Thank you for any help you can give me.
mark
March 22, 2008 at 7:45 PM
Salt won't do that. Do you have rust (iron) in your water or is the washer and dishwasher older?
Hilary Nelson
April 7, 2008 at 11:58 PM
I'm getting mixed messages from your page. I followed the Bunkhouse link you provided above, and it trashes Template Assisted Crystallization. Yet you say that you've tested devices that claim to use that technology, and you've found them to be effective. Can you clear up my confusion? Is the Bunkhouse site wrong about TAC, or is it actually not as effective as your comment above suggests? I'm hoping for a definitive answer, because my softener seems to be dying, and I'd love to be able to believe the claims made for TAC. If TAC is actually a good substitute for salt sytems, are there any brands you've found to be especially good? Thanks!
mark
April 8, 2008 at 11:07 PM
Hilary, The part on TAC was recently added. I didn't know it was there and I do disagree with it. He obviously doesn't understand the technology because he includes other technologies in with TAC. nextScaleStop is the only company with TAC, and it has been CERTIFIED as being 99.6% efficient. I also have seen it's efficiency in hundreds of applications. It is not the "Black Box" that solves all water problems, but properly applied, it is what it says it is. The other products he mentions are not even close in function to TAC.
Hilary Nelson
April 9, 2008 at 9:50 AM
That was exactly the sort of unambiguous answer I was hoping for - very helpful. The endorsement of TAC is a pleasant bonus. Thank you!
John
April 29, 2008 at 7:28 AM
No, the washing achine is new and so are the racks in the dishwasher.
Greg
April 30, 2008 at 3:15 PM
Mark, I've read about the TAC technology and am confident that it is effective in preventing scale. However, nextScaleStop claims that TAC treated water reduces soap usage with cleaner clothes in the laundry and reduced soap usage and less spotting in the diswasher. Has that been your experience or do you know of any testing that would support those claims? Thanks!
mark
April 30, 2008 at 10:23 PM
I don't believe it is the soft water causing this. I would need more info..
mark
May 1, 2008 at 5:44 PM
Greg, Some customers says it does reduce soap usage. Others say not. I think that it may improve it slightly, but I doubt it really reduces soap usage like a salt-based water softner.
ruben uribe
May 25, 2008 at 10:37 PM
i have a 1500sq ft home 2 bath and 5 person. need to soft the water. im at a lose here dn't know what brand or what type. and i dn't have a big budget so what do you suggest. thanks ruben
Bill
May 26, 2008 at 5:13 PM
I have been looking for a No-Salt softener (conditioner) and was about to purchase one of three different models. Easywater, Hydrocare or Pelican. Then I read where these no Salt conditioners really don't work. I know that they really don't soften the water but I am interested the the removal of scale and the preventing of it. This morning I ran across this web site and heard about the Template Assisted Crystalization and that the Next Filtration Company used this process and that it works. I'm not sure about the name of that company. Anyway, does this process really work and do any of these companies use that proces? Would appreciate your help.
mark
May 27, 2008 at 7:45 AM
Next Filtration has the only one that is Certified, Tested and Validated as being 99.6% efficient. The others have "testimonials" but no certifcation. There's probably a reason why that is. In order to be certified, your product must demonstrate the ability to prevent scale by at least 80%. Could it be that they don't reach that threshold? My tests indicate that is the case. Ask for proof! If a company can't supply it or if they have some long story as to why they don't ... MOVE ALONG!
Erin
June 3, 2008 at 3:05 PM
Bill, I don't know about the Hydrocare or Pelican systems, but I have an EasyWater and I have had a good experience with it. I don't know what you are looking to get out of a system, but I wanted to clean up the limescale buildup. It has done that. I have water pressure in my shower again and my dishwasher is cleaned out. I also have more suds in the shower than before and I've cut back on the amount of laundry soap I use. I did not have a salt-softener before so I don't know how they compare, but compared to not having anything, the Easywater is great. I know they have a 90-day money back guarentee too. I like mine, its done everything they said it would.
mark
June 3, 2008 at 5:00 PM
Erin, What is your position at Freije (the manufacturer of Easy Water)? I did a IP address lookup of the computer you commented from and traced it to the Freije Company. That means that you are either an employee of Freije (Easy Water) or Freije paid you to post the above (well, either way you <strong>WERE</strong> paid). <strong>This testimonial is bogus! </strong> See, this is what I have against such technology and companies who prey upon the unknowing masses with such products. I would advise everyone to beware of companies who make claims like this which have no scientific testing. If the product is so great, get it certified! Why don't you submit some proof? And while we are at it, the part about the suds in the laundry and shower is also bogus. I personally tested the water at the founder of Easy Water's home and found that there was no difference between the suds of his treated and untreated water. I would be willing to bet that I could test your water too and you would not be able to tell the difference between the treated and untreated water. <strong>By pretending you are a customer of Easy Water, you are deliberately misleading people at the least and engaging in deceptive sales practices at the worst!</strong> Why do you have to cheat to sell your product? I have seen your posts at other message boards - I haven't commented there, but you can't get away with it on my blog! I also am turning this over to the Attorney General of Indiana to see if this violation warrants prosecution.
Steve
June 4, 2008 at 10:38 AM
Mark, When I was reading the testimonial from Erin, It sounded exactly like another one I read. I was thinking that perhaps she was posting this wherever she could. Then I read your reply and could not help but laugh. Nice catch! It is amazing to me that companies would stoop to such levels. Thank you, Steve
mark
June 4, 2008 at 4:40 PM
It is truly a shame that the company who sells this product constantly tells people that they are Christain and then resort to deception and lies. Jesus said that "by their works you will know them." I guess we know what Easy Water is.
Derek
June 12, 2008 at 8:43 PM
Marc, I have already contacted Next Filtration after reading the above;however, I have been looking at a Salt Free AntiScale Water Softener called the Futura 10 by Apec. Are you familiar with this company and if so what do you think about them and their products? Appreciate your thoughts. Derek
mark
June 13, 2008 at 11:35 AM
Derek, This appears to be a "knockoff" and there are many, of the NEXT system. It probably uses FilterSorb which is an Anion-based resin and in our testing has not proven to be acceptable. It seems to have an effect by lowering the pH of the water in the initial stages, but looses it's effectiveness very quickly. I notice their website says: <em>"Use 50% Less Detergents for Whiter or Brighter Clothes" - That is easily proven false: </em> Put two 250 ml flasks of their treated and untreated water side-by-side and add 5 drops of pure soap. There will be no difference. If that's not a true statement, what else is untrue?
DAN
June 13, 2008 at 10:30 PM
How is the (TAC)Scale Stop Water Softener Alternative by Next Filtration Technologies different from their water softener. Which is better. What am I getting and what am I not? Any special conditions for instalation?
DAN
June 13, 2008 at 10:36 PM
Are there other companies that use the TAC technology or is Next Filtration Technologies superior to the rest?
ruben uribe
June 22, 2008 at 11:56 AM
so what brand and size system do you recmd for my home 1500sqft 5 person live there.hope to get some in put this time.
Luke
June 22, 2008 at 12:33 PM
Hi Mark, Helpful blog. I'm curious now after reading your comments on nextscalestop. Any idea of the initial & subsequent operating costs? Will it help with other city water problems? My other option looks to be the Aquasana Rhino whole house system, but I don't know if that will prevent scale buildup. I have hard city water, and currently have just a cartridge filter, but can't stand it any longer. Our water smells awful, like eggs...especially the hot. Cold water isn't so bad, just leaves a yellowish gunk residue if left standing(toilet bowls etc). The water heater is electric, and was brand new summer '07, house was built in '00, so I don't think it's my pipes. Part of my challenge is going to be finding a system that will take very little space. House is on slab, so only place to put system is in a coat closet where main water supply enters from outside. I've got about 18" deep by 32" wide footprint available to work with. My other big concern is obviously budget. This stuff all adds up quick. Any thoughts? Thanks in advance, Luke
mark
June 23, 2008 at 7:09 PM
Ruben, We try and be impartial on this site, but a 10-12 GPM system should be sufficient. You might try UsWaterSystems.com
ruben uribe
June 23, 2008 at 11:53 PM
thank you very much for your input..
longojl
June 25, 2008 at 3:58 PM
Mark : I was looking for a anti-scale system, and so far I check in the web 3 brands: Pelican, Next scale-stop, and lately a new system from watts One flow, have you evaluated the pelican or the Watts?? I'm confused , because all of the three are expensive and I would like to make the best choice. Regards!
Becky Bird
July 4, 2008 at 12:13 AM
I feel like I am going to get blasted by all of you in this forum but I must say I realy like my easy water - shoot me or call me stupid but it has done what it said it would. Eveyone is bashing it. I thought it sounded kind of stupid but my husband is all for new gadgets and so we figured why not. Out soft water system was on the fritz and the company gave a 90 day money back so we had nothing to loose. I din't like the sales person when I called. he didn't seem to know what he was talking about but they refered me to a plumber and they were really helpful. I had to get the 2000 because we have a tankless. Installed we paid about $1600 which I know is a lot more than replacing our soft water system but again I figured with the 90 days if it really worked then no more salt replacing which we always forgot and a lot more space gained in my strage room the thing is about the size of a thin shoe box. the wiring is kind of ugly but we will eventully get around to painting it the house color (no I am not returning it). We are really happy with it. My dishes aren't crystal clear but they did say that there would still be spots. Our skin is still as soft as with the softener but without the slimy feeling - that was always my way of telling that we were out of salt because I would start itching right away. I don't with this. I do have increased water pressure in one of my hall bathrooms and my clear shower doors in the master aren't crusty from the overspray and steam. So if the science is bogus then so be it but my system is showing me exactly what they said it would.
Skip
July 21, 2008 at 6:37 PM
just wondering what you think of kinetico?
mk
August 7, 2008 at 11:23 AM
I followed a link you gave, UsWaterSystems.com, and found the "Green Wave" Do you have any thoughts on this system. I have just bought a home that was built in 1980, the home had been empty for several months and the water had sediment and some rust when we turned on the sinks. We Do have galvanized pipes. Currently the water has cleared but still smells like metal. We move in in a couple of weeks and I really want to get something that is going to help my water situation. We are replacing toilets sinks and showers now and I don't want to ruin the new fixtures. We know we have corrosion, but can not afford to plum the whole how at this point. Please advise!
Sally
August 7, 2008 at 11:45 AM
Mark, My mom is moving to an apartment. She's extremely used to soft water. I'm glad to hear that nextscalesstop may be an option. Will the water still have the same "soft" feel that a traditional water softener gives? Thanks!
mark
August 9, 2008 at 9:47 AM
Becky Bird said: I<em> feel like I am going to get blasted by all of you in this forum but I must say I realy like my easy water - shoot me or call me stupid but it has done what it said it would. Eveyone is bashing it. I thought it sounded kind of stupid but my husband is all for new gadgets and so we figured why not. Out soft water system was on the fritz and the company gave a 90 day money back so we had nothing to loose. I din’t like the sales person when I called. he didn’t seem to know what he was talking about but they refered me to a plumber and they were really helpful. I had to get the 2000 because we have a tankless. Installed we paid about $1600 which I know is a lot more than replacing our soft water system but again I figured with the 90 days if it really worked then no more salt replacing which we always forgot and a lot more space gained in my strage room the thing is about the size of a thin shoe box. the wiring is kind of ugly but we will eventully get around to painting it the house color (no I am not returning it). We are really happy with it. My dishes aren’t crystal clear but they did say that there would still be spots. Our skin is still as soft as with the softener but without the slimy feeling - that was always my way of telling that we were out of salt because I would start itching right away. I don’t with this. I do have increased water pressure in one of my hall bathrooms and my clear shower doors in the master aren’t crusty from the overspray and steam. So if the science is bogus then so be it but my system is showing me exactly what they said it would.</em> Becky, I am assuming that you are also an employee of Easy Water posting from home, but we have just finished testing the Easy Water system, so I will respond to what I have found. <strong>Easy Water is a RF Device, RF meaning radio frequency. Stated simply, the output from this device is a DC pulsed signal with a relatively high amperage - something like an amp at 15 volts. It generates a lot of heat which is why the case is metal. As for what it does in the water - not a lot except to create a short lived magnetic field but it will stimulate corrosion big time. If there is any zinc in the system it will be quite effective as it will release zinc hydroxide as a nucleation seed. Once the zinc is all used up or when passivity sets in after a year or so, it will have very little effect on the scaling but it will continue to encourage corrosion so keep a bucket handy. If there is copper piping in the system you can expect to see green scale from the copper carbonate. I would expect to find some customers who are quite impressed with the initial results but they won't be so impressed when they find their plumbing starts leaking.</strong>
mark
August 9, 2008 at 9:53 AM
Lonojl wrote: <em>I was looking for a anti-scale system, and so far I check in the web 3 brands: Pelican, Next scale-stop, and lately a new system from watts One flow, have you evaluated the pelican or the Watts?? I’m confused , because all of the three are expensive and I would like to make the best choice.</em> Lonojl, Insofar as I can tell, Pelican and Watts/Alamo use Filtersorb. Watts One Flow and next Scale-Stop are identical. Next Scale Stop is the better of the two in my opinion as it does not lower the pH like Filtersorb, however, Next Scale Stop is coming out with a new and imprived media, so I would wait on that revision.
mark
August 9, 2008 at 9:55 AM
Skip asked: <em>just wondering what you think of kinetico?</em> Skip, Kinetico is not salt-free, but it is a good water softener. Somewhat overpriced but a good product backed by a network of dealers.
mark
August 9, 2008 at 10:00 AM
mk asked: <em>I followed a link you gave, UsWaterSystems.com, and found the “Green Wave” Do you have any thoughts on this system. I have just bought a home that was built in 1980, the home had been empty for several months and the water had sediment and some rust when we turned on the sinks. We Do have galvanized pipes. Currently the water has cleared but still smells like metal. We move in in a couple of weeks and I really want to get something that is going to help my water situation. We are replacing toilets sinks and showers now and I don’t want to ruin the new fixtures. We know we have corrosion, but can not afford to plum the whole how at this point. Please advise!</em> mk, <strong>The only sure water to prevent scale and preserve fixtures is with a water softener that removes the calcium and magnesium and replaces it with sodium. If you do not want a salt-based conditioner, then the Green Wave or Lime Buster system will often help, as it uses pre-programmed micro-chips to transmit pulses of electrical charge into the water at varying frequencies and amplitudes. These “signals” cause some of the salts in the water to form sub-microscopic clusters. When the water is then heated, the clusters act as nucleation seeds upon which the calcium carbonate (limescale) precipitates. Instead of the hard encrustation on pipes and heating elements that normally occurs when water is heated, the precipitation takes the form of tiny calcium carbonate crystals that float suspended in the water. These invisible fine crystals are carried away with the flowing water. Unlike Easy Water which has a single antenna and uses Direct Current, the Green Wave (Lime Buster) uses Alternating Current at a much lower power level and does not cause corrision</strong>.
mark
August 9, 2008 at 10:05 AM
Sally asked: <em>My mom is moving to an apartment. She’s extremely used to soft water. I’m glad to hear that nextscalesstop may be an option. Will the water still have the same “soft” feel that a traditional water softener gives?</em> Sally, <strong>I have a salt-based water softener as I like the "slick" feel of soft water. Not everyone does, but if your mother likes that feel too, she will not like the salt-free systems. Not one produces that slick feel and there will be little (if any) difference in soap usage, the dishwasher will leave spots and the clother will not be as bright or white! Companies that tell you otherwise are are not telling the truth!</strong>
leslie
August 19, 2008 at 10:51 AM
we installed Easy Water and it has worked FANTASTIC for us, especially regarding our tankless water heater.
Jim
August 19, 2008 at 5:31 PM
Mark-- This is a hugely helpful blog that seems to be reinforcing the conclusions that I was coming to (wish I had found it earlier). According to this site (http://www.waternet.com/articleprint.asp?print=1&IndexID=6636873), Watts is remarketing NextScaleStop under the OneFlow name, hence the absoultely identical test results being posted (that was a bit freaky until I could find the remarketing arrangement). You mentioned "Next Scale Stop is coming out with a new and improved media, so I would wait on that revision". Any idea when that might happen? Thanks!
mark
August 19, 2008 at 5:37 PM
Leslie, Good for you! If you have copper plumbing, be sure to keep a bucket handy!
mark
August 19, 2008 at 5:38 PM
Jim, I hear they are testing it now.
Jeff
August 28, 2008 at 2:11 PM
My water is from a municipal well with a hardness of 26 grains. I would like to use a salt free system if I can but I am not sure as to which one you think works best. We have copper pipes and hot water heat which also uses copper pipes. The dishwasher leaves a film on the dishes and we get a lot of scum in the bath tub. Is the NextScaleStop the only salt free solution that you would use? If there are no viable salt free systems avaliable, what do think of EcoWater salt based systems? Also, is it true that a whole house reverse osmosis system would damage the copper plumbing in our home? Thank you!
Becky Bird
August 29, 2008 at 7:32 PM
mark, I find your comment about my employment for easy water to be offensive and unprofessional. I spent months researching this product and asking those who actully had them what their opinions were. Not ONE person disliked theirs. My box is not metal it is plastic as is 6 other customers/family neighbors who have one. There is no heat that comes from it. If I have issues with it I have a 5 year warranty through the plumber that installed it. As I said before I like mine - only time will tell as to my pipes but I do find it interesting that the only critics are those that don't have one.
matt
August 30, 2008 at 9:22 PM
Mark, okay I've read your blog and have looked at this "salt-free" issue about as much as I am able to understand. Here's my question; Is your company's MEP technology the same as TAC technology from Nextfiltration? Are these the same products essentially? What's the diff? Thanks, Matt
mark
August 30, 2008 at 10:11 PM
Becky, I have had Easy Water Employees pose as customers before and their comments sound very much like yours. They do it on other sites too, not just here. If you are not an Easy Water Employee, then I apologize, but I am suspicious. I do have an Easy Water (we have tested several) and if you are really a customer, prove that it works to yourself. Here's how to do it. Put about a 1/2 inch of water in a pan and boil it dry. If the system works, you should be able to wipe the white deposit off the bottom of the pan with your finger. If it's not working, you will have to scrubb it or chemically remove it! Let me know what you find out!
mark
August 30, 2008 at 10:11 PM
Matt, Same technology!
mark
August 30, 2008 at 10:29 PM
Jeff, 1. Next is the only one we have tested that works the highest percentage of the time. 2. Ecowater softeners are fine - much the same as a Sears/Kenmore as they are made by the same company. 3. RO Water can indeed damage the copper if the TDS is too low. This can be easily solved with the addition of a "calcite" filter to add a little hardness back to the water in order to prevent leaching of copper.
matt
August 31, 2008 at 2:32 AM
thanks Mark, Just so I'm clear. You, although extremely knowledgeable and generous to share your expertise, do in fact own or otherwise represent US Water right? For the sake of argument, and please understand I am asking because as you are quick to point out, there are many scams and bogus claims out there; Why shouldn't I be just as wary of your claims as any other company rep. pitching their product? Could you clarify your situation, I apologize if you already have elsewhere on this site. Having an objective, expert opinion is something we laypeople depend on to make these choices with as much unbiased information as possible. You have debunked many false claims and probably saved many people thousands of dollars and yet I find myself confused after having visited US Water systems website. Okay -- nuff said. Hope you won't take offense. Thanks for taking the time read. Matt P.S. has anyone had issues with water pressure loss with these systems?
mark
August 31, 2008 at 8:11 AM
Matt, I do in fact, own US WATER. We have no affiliations and are OEM's for GE/PENTAIR, WATTS, STENNER and a number of other manufacturers. We are also distributors for NextScaleStop and Water-Right. We are not like a Culligan or Kinetico dealer who has to sell ONE brand. My point is, that we have tried all the other brands (including Filtersorb, which is also made by Watts) and found that they do not work nearly as well. Additionally, Next is the only one with the DVWG-512 certification. It absolutely works (most of the time) and they are making improvements as we speak. There are NO pressure drop issues with the product. On the US WATER website, we have "toned down" our claims because these products work most, but not all, of the time. It is a field of new technology and frankly, we don't have all the answers as yet. I can say for a certainty that it works over 85% of the time and probably would be 100% if applied properly. It is not a "cure all" for every problem as some companies claim. No offense - I generally try not to be blantly self-promoting.
matt
August 31, 2008 at 5:23 PM
Mark, thanks for your response. That makes things more clear for me. I appreciate you addressing my question. It's surprising to me that water conditioning is such a scam industry, I don't know why I thought it would be any different than anything else, I just didn't anticipate such out and out "Bunkery" Thanks for you very helpful blog. matt
Jami Stallings
September 6, 2008 at 12:09 AM
I was considering purchasing a Salt-Free system and noticed you mentioned you have a salt based softener. May I know who you went with. My guess is you have a Kinetico because you asked someone what they think about it. If you did answer this question, forgive my oversight. Thanks
Jami
September 6, 2008 at 12:15 AM
One more question. What do you think of the nano technology salt free system by Pelican?
Derek H
September 7, 2008 at 12:04 PM
Mark, you said you are a dealer for Next ScaleStop, however, the only product I see on your website is a filter cartridge for the 4 filter system. Don't you offer the "whole house" residential system? Please let me know, you have my email address. I have a well and a septic system and don't want to dump a bunch of brine into my septic or onto my land and am looking at the ScaleStop sytem to eliminate the water spots and build up on all the faucets, shower doors, etc. My current water hardness is 7 degrees KH/ 120ppm/ about 7 grains if my conversion is correct. I am looking at about 10- 12 GPM for water flow, even though my well can provide 40 GPM. I have a whole house fire sprinkler system, but I think I would install the water conditioner after the fire sprinkler system as it requires 40GPM when it goes off (hopefully never). Thanks, Derek
bryan
September 8, 2008 at 1:43 AM
hi mark, do you knnow how puronics purifex green technology conditions hard water? their no salt alternative is there clarius model...what are thoughts on this model? this company is certified with nsf...I did not see next scale or next filtration as certified with nsf. thanks, bryan
mark
September 9, 2008 at 9:30 PM
Jami, Kinetico is a fine softener, but you can buy one every bit as good (maybe better) for about one-half the price at www.uswatersystems.com. Pelican is a copycat of Next Scale Stop. Many companies are using it. The media is called Filtersorb, and is not nearly as effective as Next Scale Stop in my opinion. It is simply anion resin that drops thye pH of the water... temporarily!
mark
September 9, 2008 at 9:33 PM
Derek H, If you do not have iron, manganese or hydrogen sulfide, the you might consider a salt-free system. Here is the link to our product: https://www.uswatersystems.com/residential/sfwater.html
mark
September 9, 2008 at 9:38 PM
Bryan, I know nothing about the Puronics Purifex (and I do keep up with the latest technology), so I assume it is some existing medias "re-packaged." Knowing the company, I would be skeptical... I will do some research!
AJ
September 10, 2008 at 12:31 AM
Mark, how well does the Green Wave electronic descaler work compared to the Nexstop media? Does the Nextstop media need a minimum flow rate to work? I heard the Watts oneflow needs at least 5gpm to be effective? AJ,
AJ
September 10, 2008 at 12:39 AM
HOw long do you anticipate before next media comes out with the new version of nextscalestop?
chrism
September 11, 2008 at 3:04 PM
Mark, First off, thanks for giving out information that is actually useful and not full of opinion. We've been living with 22gpg water for about five years and our dishwasher has finally thrown in the towel. The scale buildup is really the only issue we have with our water. I was researching salt-free systems, trying to determine which ones were bunk, when I found your blog. It looks like Pelican Natursoft systems are no longer using Filtersorb. They actually tout their Natursoft media as being far superior to Filtersorb, capable of handling "up to 75gpg". They have NFS certification and are in the process of getting DVGW testing competed. It looks like the upgraded system may be equivalent to SacleStop now (maybe). Some of their graphics on their website even look strikingly similar to those on nextfiltration (a little too similar).
Shizhong
September 11, 2008 at 4:26 PM
Hello, Mark, I have two questions: 1. After extensive search, I have narrowed my candidates for salt-free water treatment to three: SafeWater (www.no-salt.com), Catalytic 1000 (www.aquantum.com), and your recommendation (Next-scaleStop). Can you comment on the other two? 2. Can you tell me where to get a next-scalestop unit? Thank you very much.
liz
September 16, 2008 at 7:12 AM
I understand that Nextscalestop is used in the GoGreen on the uswater site. But I do not see any certification as claimed here. Can you give us a link to this? thanks
mark
September 19, 2008 at 9:53 AM
AJ, Maybe I should clarify, NSS is always improving their product. "New" may not be the appropriate word. "Improved" is probably more accurate and I understand that it is already so.
mark
September 19, 2008 at 9:59 AM
Chrism, Shizhong, Liz, Pelican has been in the process of getting DVGW-512 for a year. NSF certification is attainable for anyone who pays the fee and uses approved products(I don't know where you would get "unapproved" products). NSS is still the best best. The MEP system at uswatersystems.com is the same technology. Liz, if you want certification, you have to pay for NSS.
mark
September 19, 2008 at 10:03 AM
Shizhong, Check out this website on Safewater and Catalytic 1000: http://www.chem1.com/CQ/gallery.html My opinion is that I waould run as fast and far from those products as I could. They have no basis in science.
bryan
September 22, 2008 at 12:30 AM
hi mark, what are your thoughts on the wellness mg III model...looks like a good system but a little pricey. thanks, bryan
Mike Lammers
September 24, 2008 at 1:14 PM
I just like to say, that it is nice to see some positive information on the web ( also helpful) I own and operate a plumbing company in Canada and I am researching salt less water softeners. So far I found watts oneflow ( nextfiltration ) and I want to know if it actually works, I installed one in a residence that use to have a softener. Homeowners love it. I just seem alittle unsure if it works. There is some bad info on the oneflow, this person states that it is impossible to do TAC and wants more proof. He was a chemist Wondering what you thought was a good product? Thanks for your time Mike
mark
September 26, 2008 at 8:36 PM
Bryan, My advice is to RUN!
mark
September 26, 2008 at 8:39 PM
Mike Lammers, Some people still believe that the world is flat. TAC absolutely works, when applied properly. It's not a Black Box that cures everything. Chemists are important, but often analyze until they are paralized. TAC challenges the existing paradigm!
Mitch
October 3, 2008 at 2:21 PM
Mark, What's your take on HardnessMaster? At the price, is it too good to be true? They offer a 6 month return. Their website: www.equinox-products.com/HardnessMaster.htm Thanks, Mitch
Terri
October 11, 2008 at 10:34 PM
We are also looking to go with a salt free system. Do you have any thoughts about LifeSource?
mark
October 12, 2008 at 7:50 PM
Terri, Yes, I do and it may not be what you w ant to hear. They appear to use a granular activated cabon (GAC) tank with a large permanent magnet, which has NEVER been shown to be valid at any level. Any GAC tank will do the same as theirs at a fraction of the cost. Save your money, unless you are a shareholder...
mark
October 18, 2008 at 5:41 PM
Mitch, Always be qwary of companys who offer just one product. It's like a Doctor who uses the same medication to cure every malady. I would avoid it!
Shmuel
October 23, 2008 at 3:59 AM
As part of my search for a salt free water softener, I came across a company names APEC Water Systems which sells a product named FUTURA, which is based on a TAC technology. I went through the Q&A above but could not see any mentioning to this product. Are you familiar with this manufacturer/product? Could it be that they are an OEM manufacturer of some other company such as NextFiltration? Here is a link to their web site: http://www.freedrinkingwater.com/saltfree10-water-softener.htm Many thanks, Shmuel
Shmuel
October 23, 2008 at 11:32 AM
Dear Mark, I am looking for a salt free system. I came across a TAC based system (as far as I understand the technology) named Futura by APEC Water Systems. What are your thoughts about this system? How efficient / good is it? Does it meet relevant standard? Many Thanks, Shmuel
orlando
October 24, 2008 at 3:02 PM
I am currently looking for a filtration unit for my mother. I have worked in the businees both residentially and commercially, so I know I little bit about these systems and how they work, but by no means have your expertise. I would prefer her to have a salt-based softner and I would like to know what kind of resin your Vortex system uses. Is it a mixbed, or a seperate bed cation or anion? Also I would like to get a shower filter as I live in an apartment. Do you have any recommendations? Lastly, I really enjoyed working in this new field and would like to continue, but the companies I worked for were ripping people off charging them 6 and 7 thousand dollars for these systems. Do you know of any reputable companies in the South Carolina area that I might apply? Thanks
ruth
October 25, 2008 at 5:36 PM
Hi Mark, Thanks for the excellent info on this blog site. We are on a well, with a variable-speed pump that provides from 25 to 35 gpm, and are looking for a salt-free system that will take care of water for our 2-person household, small new office building with on-demand hot water heater, and irrigation for ornamentals. Our problem is not taste, odor, or toxicity, but scale buildup on new fixtures we've recently had installed. We also have had pinhole leaks in our copper-plumbed 70's house. We had our water laboratory-tested several months after our new well was drilled in late 2006, and found: TDS 240 mg/L, pH 7.19, hardness as CaCO3 at 170 mg/L. Sodium was at 17, magnesium at 14, calcium at 47, and sulfate as SO4 at 5.8 mg/L. Chloride was at 10, bicarbonate as CaCO3 was at 190, and total alkalinity was 190 mg/L. Manganese was at 130 ug/L. Iron was at a non-detectable level. Is a next scale stop system appropriate for us? We like the taste and feel of our water as it is, but want to get rid of the staining and crusty buildup. We have been looking at the Freije system but after going through all the postings we are now having second thoughts. Thank you for your time reading this and answering us. We are located in California.
mark
October 25, 2008 at 7:13 PM
Shmuel wrote: <em>"am looking for a salt free system. I came across a TAC based system (as far as I understand the technology) named Futura by APEC Water Systems. What are your thoughts about this system? How efficient / good is it? Does it meet relevant standard?"</em> <strong>Shmuel, What I read on their site was very generic and their claims are somewhat suspect. I don't know what they are using, but I don't think it's truly TAC!</strong>
mark
October 25, 2008 at 7:19 PM
Orlando wrote: <em>am currently looking for a filtration unit for my mother. I have worked in the businees both residentially and commercially, so I know I little bit about these systems and how they work, but by no means have your expertise. I would prefer her to have a salt-based softner and I would like to know what kind of resin your Vortex system uses. Is it a mixbed, or a seperate bed cation or anion? Also I would like to get a shower filter as I live in an apartment. Do you have any recommendations? Lastly, I really enjoyed working in this new field and would like to continue, but the companies I worked for were ripping people off charging them 6 and 7 thousand dollars for these systems. Do you know of any reputable companies in the South Carolina area that I might apply?</em> <strong>Orlando, Our Fusion Vortec system uses the highest quality premium cation-exchange resin with the best chlorine and iron resistanace. We also offer a Dual Media System which has 2 chambers - one for resin and one for carbon, to remove the chlorine for the entire house. I know what you are saying about "ripping off" the people. Some water conditioning salesmen are 2 or 3 nothches below a used car salesman. Sad, but true!</strong>
mark
October 25, 2008 at 7:23 PM
Ruth wrote: <em>Thanks for the excellent info on this blog site. We are on a well, with a variable-speed pump that provides from 25 to 35 gpm, and are looking for a salt-free system that will take care of water for our 2-person household, small new office building with on-demand hot water heater, and irrigation for ornamentals. Our problem is not taste, odor, or toxicity, but scale buildup on new fixtures we’ve recently had installed. We also have had pinhole leaks in our copper-plumbed 70’s house. We had our water laboratory-tested several months after our new well was drilled in late 2006, and found: TDS 240 mg/L, pH 7.19, hardness as CaCO3 at 170 mg/L. Sodium was at 17, magnesium at 14, calcium at 47, and sulfate as SO4 at 5.8 mg/L. Chloride was at 10, bicarbonate as CaCO3 was at 190, and total alkalinity was 190 mg/L. Manganese was at 130 ug/L. Iron was at a non-detectable level. Is a next scale stop system appropriate for us? We like the taste and feel of our water as it is, but want to get rid of the staining and crusty buildup. We have been looking at the Freije system but after going through all the postings we are now having second thoughts. Thank you for your time reading this and answering us. We are located in California.</em> <strong>Ruth, I did get you voice-mail and did what you asked) ;) The Freije system absolutely will not work for you, but before I answer, I need to know if you are getting black or brown stains?</strong>
Scott
October 26, 2008 at 2:37 AM
Mark, Thanks for the help here. After some research, I am considering US Water's GoGreen no salt conditioner for my 10-year old 2-bath home to eliminate (or at least greatly reduce) scale build-up, and ask if you have any specific comments concerning my current system: Private well, 30 gpg hardness; galv steel tank w/bladder Merrill float delivering 55 psi pressure; Culligan iron/sulphur filtration; boiler serving radiant floor heat (PEX tubing in lightwieght conc) and also heats domestic hot water. The house has copper piping and already has 3/4" connections w/by-pass ready for a softener. Your thoughts?
mark
October 26, 2008 at 6:42 PM
Scott, It will work fine if all the iron (rust) is removed by the iron filtration system.
Donna
October 27, 2008 at 2:56 PM
Mark, Wondering if you could tell me which system would be the best for my problem. New home, the Well guy told me my water was a "little hard", I find it awful. I can't use my dishwasher because of white film on everything, tried reducing amt of detergent and tried different types but nothing helps. My shower doors are no longer clean looking and all my fixtures are spotted. The following is my analysis: PH 7.41, Calcium 90.2, Hardness 252, Iron .01, Magnesium 6.5, Manganese .01, Sodium 9.2, Chloride 105. Any thoughts?
mark
October 27, 2008 at 9:17 PM
Donna, There really is no right answer, but here are a few facts: 1. Salt-Free Systems are not always a satisfactory solutions to hard water problems as they can be affected by heavy metals in the water, as well as iron, manganese, sulfates and other elements (some of these systems are completely bogus anyway). They also do not remove anything from the water, so they may not provide a complete solution in your home. For example, you may still get spots and a coating on your shower doors, but it should wipe-off easily, unlike untreated water where some chemical agent is required for removal. In the dishwasher, satisfactory results can usually be acheived with the use of a detergent such as Wal-Mart's house brand and a product like "Jet-Dry." 2. As people age, they don't want to carry or worry about heavy salt bags for water softeners, and as people become more conscious of being "green," they want to eliminate waste of water and the discharge of chlorides into the environment. 3. A salt-regenerated water softener will provide superior results in the dishwasher, shower and in the laundry, and will allow the consurmer to use less detergent, soaps, bleach, chemicals, fabric softeners and the like. That also saves the environment. Is is better to use less soaps and detergents or no salt and not waste water? That probably depends upon your point of view. That said, in your case, the manganese could affect the operation of the media over time, so you should probably have an oxidation filter ahead of a "no-salt" system, or a good water softener should solve your problems as well.
Greg Hilliard
October 29, 2008 at 1:45 AM
I am having the GreenWave TAC system installed soon in my new house. I will let everyone know what we find out regarding soap usage, and residual calcium oxalate. I imagine somewhere I will find some chalk like substance that is the Ca+ oxalate residue. I wish I could speak with someone who has a system already, but I trust the people I have met at US Water Systems here in Indianapolis.
Jason
November 1, 2008 at 11:46 AM
Looks like this Mark guy has the only system in the world that works! Everyone else's system is a ripoff. Kind of makes you wonder about Mark.
Maggie
November 1, 2008 at 2:02 PM
Is it possible to get performance data and more detailed specifications on the GreenWave No-Salt Water Conditioning & Chlorine/Chemical Removal System? How does that Chlorine/Chemical Removal System differ from US Water Systems Hydro-Clean Backwashing Filter in terms of what is removed by the system? Thank you very much.
Maggie
November 1, 2008 at 2:04 PM
Why are more companies using Filtersorb SP3 than the TAC technology?
mark
November 1, 2008 at 9:23 PM
Jason said: <em>Looks like this Mark guy has the only system in the world that works! Everyone else’s system is a ripoff. Kind of makes you wonder about Mark.</em> <strong>Jason, First of all, never bring a knife to a gun fight! Maybe you don't read English, but I have not said that I have the only one that works. I have said that I had the only one that had passed the DVGW-512. I also take substance over style because many systems being sold today make claims that are ambigious or have no basis in fact. A 9th grade chemistry student can figure that out. If you have something intelligent with some substance, then I'll consider it, but your one-line drive by "shootings" are unintelligent drivel!</strong>
mark
November 1, 2008 at 9:31 PM
Maggie asked: <em>Why are more companies using Filtersorb SP3 than the TAC technology?</em> <strong>Maggie, First of all, Filtersorb and TAC technology are very different, and I have sold and tested several Filtersorb systems. They also appear to work, but I am not yet ready to say that they work at the level of TAC. I will have an answer in another six months. It appears promising, however they have not passed DVGW-512. The reason more companies use Filtersorb is simply because it appears they will sell to anyone who has a pulse, and nextScaleStop is very selective in the distribution of their product. Filtersorb is also cheaper (that may be the main reason). I will post information on the carbon filters in a couple of days.</strong>
Yvonne Kay
November 1, 2008 at 10:43 PM
You say that a TAC filtration system should be certified, tested, and validated using DVGW-12 protocal. Is this government testing? Does anyone know what Consumer Reports has to say about all this? We are building a home--we are in a rural water district. The water analysis is as follows: The following is my analysis: PH 7.9, Calcium 67, Iron .036, Magnesium 31, Manganese .005, Sodium 97, Chloride 130. Any thoughts? We are retired and can't afford to over-buy.
Jason
November 2, 2008 at 1:01 AM
Mark, Just an observation that is all. No need to go on the attack with direct insults towards my intellect. I am not looking for any type of fight. Just my observation. Easy!
Greg Hilliard
November 3, 2008 at 2:49 AM
Day 3 after installation of my GreenWave salt free water conditioner. Shower-I work nights, and last night I saw what looked like scale on my shower door. It is a brand new house, with new everything, so everything stands out. I wiped my finger over what looked like scale, and it just dissappeared. It was definetly not scale, not even close. I figure I will be wiping my shower down every week or so with a wash cloth, should take 5 minutes tops. I want to stress that you had to look really close to see anything at day 3. Dishwasher-We have upgraded appliances, but WOW! No streaks or anything, and this si without rinse agent. The older glasses look almost new after I ran them through x2. Taste-Definetly different, but this is due to the pre-carbon unit, I'm sure. I also had an RO system installed. It is a thing of beauty. Water feel-OK, my wife and I both agree something is different. We think the water has some conflicting properties. There is no slimy film, in fact just the opposite. The water seems to rinse the soap off SUPER FAST. Hair feels squeakly clean after one wash. I will write more at a later date, but so far I am really pleased with GreenWave's TAC system. Greg Hilliard Plainfield IN
Steve
November 3, 2008 at 12:53 PM
Mark, To my understanding the TAC filtration will eliminate(drastically reduce) the scale buildup. To eliminate chlorine from my city water and to filter out bacteria also I would need a second unit to accomplish this. Is there a single salt-free unit that will do this? Thanks for your help Steve
Thomas
November 3, 2008 at 11:13 PM
Mark - I have read about how salt systems are bad for your health by ingesting higher than normal sodium levels (see: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/sodium/AN00317). Any validity in these claims? This is why we are thinking of a salt-free system, but I dont want to waste money on a non-performer. I am from Baton Rouge, where the water was extremely soft. Our newly constructed home in NC left us with a private well that tested Ca+/Mg+ at 854 ppm (about 50 gpg). No iron. We have 6 full baths and 2 1/2 baths. Any suggestion to what is best for our needs? Salt vs. non-salt? Someone said Rain soft was the best, but they were very expensive ( ~ $5,000). What are your thoughts/suggestions? Thanks for letting us pick your brain.
mark
November 3, 2008 at 11:20 PM
<em>Steve wrote: Mark, To my understanding the TAC filtration will eliminate(drastically reduce) the scale buildup. To eliminate chlorine from my city water and to filter out bacteria also I would need a second unit to accomplish this. Is there a single salt-free unit that will do this?</em> <strong>Steve, Our Green Wave systems include a carbon filter to remove the clorine and chemicals. It's all included in the system.</strong>
mark
November 3, 2008 at 11:27 PM
<em>Thomas wrote: I have read about how salt systems are bad for your health by ingesting higher than normal sodium levels (see: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/sodium/AN00317). Any validity in these claims? This is why we are thinking of a salt-free system, but I dont want to waste money on a non-performer. I am from Baton Rouge, where the water was extremely soft. Our newly constructed home in NC left us with a private well that tested Ca+/Mg+ at 854 ppm (about 50 gpg). No iron. We have 6 full baths and 2 1/2 baths. Any suggestion to what is best for our needs? Salt vs. non-salt? Someone said Rain soft was the best, but they were very expensive ( ~ $5,000). What are your thoughts/suggestions? Thanks for letting us pick your brain.</em> <strong>Thomas, Rainsoft would be my choice if there were no other companies. In other words, you can do a lot better than that! 1. You don't have to drink salt-softened water. Even though it doesn't have high amounts of sodium, it may nOt taste good. A REVERSE OSMOSIS SYSTEM REMOVES THE SODIUM, AS WELL AS A PLETHORA OF OTHER CHEMICALS. 2. I would like to see a detailed water analysis before I answer.</strong>
mark
November 3, 2008 at 11:30 PM
Jason, You can disagree all you want, but you get what you give... It may be an observation, but it was the type that questions the integrity of a person. Do that and you will get what you give.
mark
November 3, 2008 at 11:31 PM
Greg Hillard, Keep up the posts. Everyone will appreiate your comments and this is really making history!
William Grobman
November 7, 2008 at 10:35 AM
Mark, What say you to Pelican's claim of now being DVGW certified and their further claim of being the only US Manufacturer with that type of certification for the prevention of scale? Below is the quote from their website: Update Sept 30th, 2008: Pelican has completed third-party testing through DVGW certified lab to DVGW W 512 standards for the prevention of scale buildup. Pelican is now the only US Manufacturer with this type of performance testing for the prevention of scale. With this certification do you now feel that they are a viable salt-free solution to water treatement? Thanks, Bill
Jason
November 7, 2008 at 10:55 AM
Here is link to additional information on TAC from the same site you already mentioned earlier. http://www.chem1.com/CQ/catscams.html Just FYI. Thanks
mark
November 7, 2008 at 9:35 PM
William Grobman, I did not find what you stated. Can you post the link? Jason, That website is very useful and I refer to it but do not agree with all that he says. Dissent is good.
Taylor
November 13, 2008 at 11:33 AM
Mark, Here's the link to the mention on Pelican's website of DVGW-512. I'm interested in your thoughts here as well, as I know you had mentioned a couple times that the absence of this certification was your main objection to the Natursoft product. http://www.pelicanwater.com/salt-free-water-softener-comparison.php Thanks, Taylor
mark
November 13, 2008 at 12:06 PM
Taylor, It is NOT certified by DVGW-512. Here's what says: <strong><em><strong>"Pelican has completed </strong><strong>third-party testing </strong>through DVGW certified lab to DVGW W 512 standards for the prevention of scale buildup. Pelican is now the only US Manufacturer with this type of performance testing for the prevention of scale."</em></strong> Why did they go third party testing? Maybe I can get an answer. Actually, I know the answer, but want confirmation. Stay tuned!
mark
November 14, 2008 at 3:57 PM
Taylor, <strong>After further review, I think what the website says is very sleazily worded.</strong> It says that they have "<strong>completed testing</strong>". Period. Nothing is said about <strong>'Passing"</strong> the test, but the casual reader will infer that the product “passed” the test. While it is technically true that they have completed testing (I have heard that they had been in testing for over a year <em>on a 3 week test</em>), it gives a completely false impression because I see no certification as a result of the testing. <strong>Using that same rationale, nextScaleStop could go ahead and say that it is now a cure for cancer, a miracle weight-loss aid, heals warts and ulcers and makes bald men grow a full head of hair!</strong> Read carefully . . This statement is like those used by some of the sleazy shower filter folks. They “completed” the test. They didn’t “pass” the test. <strong>Important distinction.</strong>
Jerry
November 17, 2008 at 1:04 AM
Mark, Thank you for your answers. I am looking for a salt-free system to reduce my scale buildup. My well water is very hard, but perfect in all other aspects. I was leaning towards filtersob media type system, until I found your website. Your system (TAC / MEP) claims almost everything the same as FILTERSOB except for that one certification you keep repeating. Can you tell me what is the media that TAC systems use? I know that FILTERSOB is a type of media that can be purchased when it "gets used". Nothing lasts forever. TAC system uses what media and can you supply a link to purchasing that media? If not, I would never purchase such system, as it only guarantees its media for 2 years. What do I do after two years? Buy a whole new unit? Jerry
mark
November 17, 2008 at 9:53 AM
Jerry, It is very confusing for consumers right now as there are all types of claims and contradictory information by numerous companies. First of all, I am a distributor for Watts Water who sells ScaleNet which uses Filtersorb. We have tested Filtersorb and found that it is not nearly the equal of the TAC media. By the way, the TAC media is replaced just like the Filtersorb media, so there is no need to buy a new system. The media costs about $270 for the average system. I can only say that the Filtersorb media is very different from the TAC media. Here's the link on how it works: http://nextfiltration.com/DownloadFiles/next-ScaleStop-SysLit-res.pdf Here's the DWGW-512 Certification: http://www.wefixbadwater.com/pdf/DVGW%20report.pdf The science behind it: http://www.wefixbadwater.com/pdf/Scale%20Stop%20Science%20SF.pdf Industry article on TAC: http://www.wefixbadwater.com/pdf/Feb%2007%20TAC%20Article.pdf As a side point, Watts Industries, which is the parent company of Watts Water has taken on the TAC media instead of Filtersorb in for there world-wide sales. Watts Industries is a $1.5 billion company. Watts Water is $50 million. TAC is far superior to Filtersorb in my opinion, and they actually have PROOF that it works, not just their own claims.
Jerry D
November 17, 2008 at 6:11 PM
Mark, Are you the same "Water Doctor" that is trashed in the "Bunkhouse" website? (http://www.chem1.com/CQ/wonkywater.html#ENERGIZED) The photo on his site and yours look similar (except maybe for an age difference). However what the chemist writes doesn't seem to ring true, I didn't see any references to health benefits or "Quanta Water" or other such nonsense on your or the US Water Sys. sites. Seems to be a rather unfounded vicious attack. My search to find a saltless water conditioner has been extremely frustrating, don't know whom to believe. So far the TAC system seems to be the best possibility. Or maybe I should use a conventional salt softener. (I'm on a well) No offense intended to anyone.
mark
November 17, 2008 at 6:18 PM
Jerry, That's not me. I have no clue who that guy is. It is very confusing. Look, salt-free systems are not a cure-all and any site that only sells ONE PRODUCT is suspect in my opinion. Water has many different properties and variations - no one solution applies. To date, I am not a big fan of salt-free systems on wells. What is your water analysis? Iron, Hardness, PH, TDS, Manganese, etc.
Jerry D
November 17, 2008 at 8:47 PM
Thanks, Mark I guess I need to have my water tested. My well is in limestone and shale along Conns Creek south of Waldron. My neighbor has hardness > 20g.
Jerry
November 18, 2008 at 4:03 PM
Hi Mark, Thank you for answering my questions. I am "Jerry" not to get confused with "Jerry D" that is posting similar questions at the same time :-) If I may, I'd like to pick your brain again. No one seems to be able to answer my question. I have a private well system. When I purchased the house about 3 years ago I knew I need to address the water issue. There was no filter and/or softener at all. I had my water tested and it "passed" all state drinking water regulations (state of Massachusetts). However there is a very high visible corrosion of piping (white & green residue). I had to replace most of my copper piping and one good quality faucet is gone in 2.5 years! Also, my shower base (acrylic) is getting constantly aqua color (bluish/greenish). When I do my own hardness test it shows water to be about 80ppm. Here are my results from a professional independent testing company: Coliform Absent Fecal/E. Coli Absent Sodium 284.4 mg/L Potassium 4.5 mg/L Copper 0.25 mg/L Iron 0.05 mg/L Manganese 0.02 mg/L Magnesium 3.2 mg/L Calcium 18.4 mg/L Arsenic Not Detected Lead Not Detected pH 5.79 SU Turbidity 0.20 N.T.U. Color Not Detected Odor Not Detected Conductivity 1516.0 umhos T.D.S. 909.6 mg/L Sediment Absent Alkalinity 45.0 mg/L Chlorine Not Detected Chloride 520.1 mg/L Hardness 59.1 mg/L Nitrate 5.1 mg/L Nitrite Not Detected Ammonia Not Detected Sulfate 44.3 mg/L A My water "looks" great, has no smell, tastes great. Do you think salt-free softener can fix my corrosion problems? Sincerely, Jerry
Geo
November 18, 2008 at 10:19 PM
Mark, I would really like to find a decent non-salt water conditioner/filter.. I was looking at Pelican till I read your reviews...and looked at Nextgen...but my local plumber said they carry gentec?? or gentek?? do you know this brand?? or should I have them find me nextgen?? Here are my water params... Hardness 17 pH 7.8 Iron ND Sodium 50 Chloride 86 Magnesium 31 Boron .118 Molybdenum .0015 Strontium 46 Silica 6.9 Thanks George
Greg Hilliard
November 19, 2008 at 1:53 AM
Continuation from Nov 3rd... Hey all, I am going to perform a little experiment with my new water. I purchased a TAC system Oct 30th. Just a little background first; I am an MT (ASCP). That is Medical Technologist certified by the American Society of Clinical Pathology. I have worked in the clinical lab for about 15 years. I plan to take a sample of my TAC water, and spin it down at 6000 rpm for 20 minutes. I will then carefully remove the supernatant, and place a drop on slide, stain it with Wright stain and try to observe calcium carbonate crystals. I see ca+ carbonate and ca+ oxalate crystals all the time. Carbonate look like small dumbbells, while oxalate look like squares with a retractile cross in the middle. Since I have the equipment at my disposal, I thought why not share my observations. More to follow....Greg
Geo
November 19, 2008 at 8:43 AM
Sorry as a follow up....here is what else is in our water.. Arsenic (ppb) 8 Barium 22 Chromium 52 Fluoride 0.6 Nickel 1.5 Nitrate 4.48 Selenium 3 Lead 8 Copper .185 I also so mentioned the Greenwave TAC system.. Please recommend what you think would work best with my water Params... Thanks Geo
mark
November 20, 2008 at 4:18 PM
Jerry, In a word - NO! You need to raise your pH to above 7.0. You would do this one of two ways: 1. Calcite filter; or 2. Injection of Soda Ash.
mark
November 22, 2008 at 10:19 AM
Geo, The Green Wave with the TAC media should do a fine job in preventing scale and the carbon filtration should also remove/reduce some chemicals. If it were me, I would still have a good reverse osmosis system for drinking. On the other hand, things like Boron and Strontium can be reduced by ion-exchange softening. An ion-exchange water softener with dual-media (carbon and resin) would also do a fine job, along with a reverse osmosis system.
D Burr
November 23, 2008 at 9:03 PM
I am having a problem with buildup on fixtures from the water softener. Is it a problem with the settings, the type of salt, or is this just normal. I have copper pipes through most of the house (1983) and am concerned what effects the salt from the water softener may occur. Thank you.
mark
November 24, 2008 at 10:16 AM
I will need to have some more information with regards to your water quality. Is the water soft coming out of the softener? Have you checked both the hot and cold side?
Yvette
November 25, 2008 at 4:39 PM
hi Mark I am looking to by a non salt water system to reduce scaling. My water comes from the city but some of the city water comes from a well. i read your recommendation for the tac system but I do not know who seels it in south orange county california can you help. thanks
mark
November 25, 2008 at 11:38 PM
Yvette, Here's the link: https://www.uswatersystems.com/residential/greenwaveTAC.html
jay
November 26, 2008 at 12:27 AM
Mark- I appreciate the great information that you have posted. I am also doing research on no salt systems and would love to talk to a representative of the nextscalestop, but I am unable to locate a dealer list or any info on who sells them in my area (Chicago). Anywhere I can look?
Bill
November 26, 2008 at 2:56 AM
Mark, I have been receiving literature on the HydroCare HC-38 water treatment system for lime scale build-up. Have you had any experience with this system? If so, is it another "stay away" technology? Thanks, Bill
mark
November 26, 2008 at 9:09 AM
Jay, The GreenWave uses the same TAC Media and here's a link: https://www.uswatersystems.com/residential/greenwaveTAC.html
Jerry
November 26, 2008 at 3:37 PM
Mark, This is in response to your Nov. 20th posting. Reading more about water problems like mine, it makes complete sense that you recommended calcite filter. Some websites are recommending calcite/corosex mixture in my case (5.8Ph). What is your opinion on upflow systems that do not need backwashing? I only ask because I have a very long way to my drain outlet from where the filter would be (about 30 ft). Also, do you know of systems that come with backwash valve system regulated by a chip measuring water usage like the ones in water softeners? All I was able to find is calcite filters with regular timer valves. Sincerely, Jerry
Jerry
November 26, 2008 at 3:38 PM
Mark, Do you think my water hardness will be raised too high to be save using calcite filter?
mark
November 26, 2008 at 5:42 PM
Jerry, The upflow systems are OK as long as you change-out the media every year or two (cheap). The backwashing systems just re-classify the media and remove any soilds that may accumulate (all you have to do it add to the system periodically). In your case an upflow neutralizer would work as well. Calcite would be the best as Corsex is prone to overcorrecting the pH problem (i.e., the pH could be too high instead of too low). Yes, you will probabaly raise the hardness to a level of where it needs softened. You will see that later. The absolute best way is to inject a pH increaser into the water stream with a variable injection system and "dial it in." https://www.uswatersystems.com will have a full pH adjustment section within 2 weeks. We have just finsished all the info to sell it on the web. Keep us in mind.
Kelley
November 29, 2008 at 2:05 AM
Wow! Thanks for all the information Mark--it's been fun getting up to date on this blog. While I like the idea of the Green system, I really like what soft water does--the dishes will be cleaner, clothes will be brighter and we'll use less cleaning product with it. My husband says he doesn't like the slimey feeling water. We have a 1600sf/2 bath house in So. Cal. Which of the water softeners that you sell, would you recommend to us? Thanks!
Isi
November 29, 2008 at 7:07 AM
Hi Mark, Good blog, thanks. A few questions if you would be so kind... How do I test my water? Have had 2 "salespeople" from different companies come out and by their test results it is amazing that I am still alive. Is there a kit or something I can buy somewhere and do it myself? All I want is a system that will prevent the build up of whatever it is that is spotting in my dishwasher (it doesn't clean well either) and clogging my faucets. There is also a rusty red buildup on my shower head. Something that will spare my appliances. I do not like the slick feel of soft water, but will learn to like it if that's the only solution. Last, I don't have a lot of room for a unit. I'm on the west coast of Florida and anything ground level must be up 4 feet from floor. Thanks alot!
mark
November 29, 2008 at 1:49 PM
Kelley, Get separate houses! Just kidding. I would recommend the Fusion series and you could bleed a little hard water back to make it slightly less slick. The 35,000 grain unit would be sufficient.
mark
November 29, 2008 at 1:55 PM
Isi, Before you do anything, you need a good water analysis from an independent third party, not some water conditioning salesman who only stands to gain if they can scare you into buying something. Try this and get back with me on the results: https://www.uswatersystems.com/catalog/ntl-watercheck-with-pesticides-test-kit.htm
Kelley
November 29, 2008 at 4:28 PM
Funny! Thanks. Is the "bleeding" part easy to set up? I like the idea of it since a little bit of hard minerals is a good thing. Thanks so much!
Maddawg
November 29, 2008 at 9:13 PM
First to avoid confusion I'll use my nickname "Maddawg" instead of "Jerry D" I had a local lab test my water. He showed no ill effects so I assumed it was safe to drink. Got sicker than a dog :^} Seriously: Regarding your November 17, 2008 6:18 pm post. What else should I have my well water tested for? Any test labs nearby (Shelby County,IN)?
mark
November 29, 2008 at 10:06 PM
Kelley, Sometimes it's as easy as just opening the bypass valve slightly.
mark
November 29, 2008 at 10:13 PM
Maddawg, Like I always say, before you do anything, you need a good water analysis from an independent third party, like here: https://www.uswatersystems.com/catalog/ntl-watercheck-with-pesticides-test-kit.htm
Kelley
November 30, 2008 at 12:17 AM
Thanks for that info. One last question, you said the 35,000 grain would be a good size for us. I didn't tell you that we have 3 kids. Would that still be the size?
mark
November 30, 2008 at 9:43 AM
Kelley, That should still be OK, but it would be more salt efficient if you went up one size to a 53,000 grain unit. If you think about it: it's 50% bigger for only a $100 more. It will give you better water with less salt.
Bill
December 1, 2008 at 2:39 AM
What about my question from 11-26-08?
mark
December 1, 2008 at 6:41 AM
Bill, Sorry, I missed your question on 11-26. The Hydrocare HC-38 is magnetic water treatment and in my opinion, worthless.
Thomas
December 1, 2008 at 9:33 AM
Mark - Her are the results. I wanted to get another test before replying to your request of the results. They are as follows: Alkalinity - 43 mg/L Calcium - 514 Hardness as CaCo3 - 1299 Iron - 1.19 Mg - 3.3 pH - 7.6 Na - 12 Sulfate - 1420 All other resuts are of negligable amounts. What are your thoughts? As I previously alluded to was my concern from the Mayo clinics testing of the salt ingested from softeners. What are your suggestions for the home? As you can see we have crazy hard water. Thanks for your assistance. Thomas
Thomas
December 1, 2008 at 10:02 AM
Again our home is an 8,000SF / 8 BR / 6 full & 2 half bath home with 2 laundries. I am worried as to a softener that can accommodate. But almost never that 3 baths are I use at any one time. Thanks agin - Thomas
Thomas
December 1, 2008 at 10:04 AM
apologies for all the typo's
Bill
December 1, 2008 at 12:59 PM
Thanks Mark
Isi
December 3, 2008 at 11:34 AM
Hi Mark, OK, tested my water; nitrates & nitrites were in safe levels. pH was 8. Hardness 7 ppm. Iron=0ppm, Copper=0.5ppm, Chlorine= >1ppm Total alkalinity= 180ppm. Bacteria= neg. also neg. for pesticides and lead. so if what I've read is sufficient, the only problem is with the alkalinity? what do you think? Thanks a bunch, Isi
Frank Napolitano
December 3, 2008 at 7:20 PM
Hi Mark, I have been reading this page and you seem like a good source. We (Me, my wife and three kids) have well water and it is high in calcium and I am wondering what the best way to get rid of it is. Calcium is the only problem from the test. Thank you.
Jami
December 4, 2008 at 6:36 AM
Do you use a salt system? If so, Why? I have bad tasting water. Tastes like... Dirt with a little bit of dead minnows. I live in Texas. A lot of dirt, deep down black clay that was over farmed for cotton but not any more, and man made lakes. Where does my water come from? I do not know, but it tastes terrible. This small town probably has filtration below the standard of a sink filter. The scaling is so bad, IT BROKE MY PUR WATER FILTER ON THE FAUCET BY JAMMING IT UP. The scaling is so serious it looks like someone spit a huge toothpaste spit dropping on the faucet and left it there to dry. I understand how it got on the mirror (my wife brushes with her mouth open) but I don't understand why it's on the sink in the unused restroom fixtures and all over the shower walls. Mysteries surround me. Water flow is slow here. I have to turn on hot and cold to get a good flow that you get out of a modern city home. This is not because of the low-flow taps. It is how low the pressure is from the city. With that sid, I want to get rid of the water spots and the taste without making my flow any lower. Should I get a salt-free with carbon filter and osmosis optional with a pre filter or should I get a salt system with reverse osmosis? I don't mind slick and I'm not thinking I'm saving a ton of money on cleaning products, because the money saved on cleaning product is used up somehow somewhere else like in BACKWASH or media exchange. We do not have a ban on salt systems currently but should that be something to consider. I like going green, as in I have all CFL and I'm looking for more insulation for the house to get lower footprint, but I don't want to buy bamboo floors if they last me 4 years and I have to replace them. That's because I'm poor. Salt is cheap isn't it? Also, taking in consideration all these things, what do I do.. I know a bunch of you have these questions going on and just won't ask it out of trying to look intelligent. LOL just joking but I'm seriously serious. POST ME YOUR ANSWER PLEASE! Don't tell me you need more data either. Just take what I gave you and give me your best guess then. I plan on running with your answer so please - you tell me what to do but be serious with your answer. Keywords: Small city in Texas, water tastes bad and seems, low water flow (I welcome chlorine taste in this case), don't mind slick, do care about environment, most important keyword: LONG TIME LOW INCOME USAGE A MUST, LOW MAINTENANCE but I don't mind to carry a bag of salt. Don't waste my water is what I mean. I shower everyday, just me and wife in 4 bedroom house, cook at home every day, wash dishes every day, heavy water usage for two people, copper piping, osmosis or no osmosis... end keywords: What else do you need? White scaling... Please, what would you do? Give me your best recommendation. Thanks
Thomas
December 4, 2008 at 11:39 PM
Mark - why did you delete my question? Were you afraid my situation was too complicated with the hardness issues? I had a great deal of respect for this forum until you just disregarded my situation. I have a problem, and you just choose to ignore...no delete my question? You wanted the analysis from my question on Nov 3d, I gave it to you, then you delete my question so no one else could read it. I even got a second test just to be sure you had the correct info (which took 2+weeks from the county). It was up for 4 days with no response. Thanks...
Thomas
December 4, 2008 at 11:43 PM
Sorry for letting loose so angrily in this forum, but I really need some help here. And I didn't mean delete, I meant disregard.
mark
December 5, 2008 at 8:08 AM
Hello, everyone. I have taken a few days off the blog and Thomas I am not ignoring you. I will answer all the pending questions today or tomorrow. Stay tuned!
Julie
December 5, 2008 at 10:17 AM
Our water was recently tested and everything was excellent with the exception of the hardness. On your web site I see the LimeBlaster. It appears like that is all we need. What can you tell me about this product that makes it different/better than similar products. Thanks
Judy
December 6, 2008 at 3:43 PM
Mark, we are building a home (1800 sf, 2 bath, 2 old folks) and are considering salt-free for both physical and environmental reasons. We will have municipal water, but it comes from wells and is testing 35 grains hard, but has almost no iron content. We're considering the Superior Water Conditioner, since they're a local company, but we're open to other options that might work better. Superior is not claiming that we will be happy with the magnetic unit alone, since hubby likes the "slippery" feel of softened water, so we will be putting in a bypass to allow for the addition of an ion exchange softener later if necessary. Do you believe the GreenWave system would work for us?
mark
December 6, 2008 at 4:44 PM
Thomas wrote: <strong><em>Here are the results. I wanted to get another test before replying to your request of the results. They are as follows: Alkalinity - 43 mg/L Calcium - 514 Hardness as CaCo3 - 1299 Iron - 1.19 Mg - 3.3 pH - 7.6 Na - 12 Sulfate - 1420 All other resuts are of negligable amounts. What are your thoughts? As I previously alluded to was my concern from the Mayo clinics testing of the salt ingested from softeners. What are your suggestions for the home? As you can see we have crazy hard water. Again our home is an 8,000SF / 8 BR / 6 full & 2 half bath home with 2 laundries. I am worried as to a softener that can accommodate. But almost never that 3 baths are I use at any one time. </em></strong> <strong>Reply:</strong> Thomas, You will first need to remove all the iron and manganese. The sulfates may also be an issue. ANY ODOR? I would recommend our OXI system to remove the iron, sulfur and manganese followed by a water softener and reverse osmosis system to remove the salt for drinking. The following would do a fine job: OXi-5 Iron & Manganese Eradication System Fusion WC-3 Water Softener Permeate Pump RO system
mark
December 6, 2008 at 4:47 PM
Isi, The Green Wave System would work very well.
mark
December 6, 2008 at 4:49 PM
Thomas, By the way, your question was not hard - I just took a few days off. Sorry to keep you waiting.
mark
December 6, 2008 at 4:52 PM
Frank Napolitano wrote: <em><strong>We have well water and it is high in calcium and I am wondering what the best way to get rid of it is. Calcium is the only problem from the test.</strong></em> <strong>Reply:</strong> Frank, The Green Wave system will keep the calcium from stcking and forming scale and a properly sized water softener will remove it. You choose. There is no ROGHT answer.
mark
December 6, 2008 at 5:00 PM
Julie, The LimeBlaster is the best of the RF (Radio Frequency) devices we have tested, but you must understand that it is not nearly as effective as a system that uses Template Assisted Crystallization (TAC) like the GreenWave. A salt-based water softener will also remove the hardness. US WATER SYSTEMS offers a 110 day/110% Guarantee on the LimeBlaster. If you don't like it within 110 days, you can get a 110% refund against the purchase of any other system, so it might be worth a try. Some people are satisfied with it.
mark
December 6, 2008 at 5:03 PM
Judy wrote: <strong><em>Mark, we are building a home (1800 sf, 2 bath, 2 old folks) and are considering salt-free for both physical and environmental reasons. We will have municipal water, but it comes from wells and is testing 35 grains hard, but has almost no iron content. We’re considering the Superior Water Conditioner, since they’re a local company, but we’re open to other options that might work better. Superior is not claiming that we will be happy with the magnetic unit alone, since hubby likes the “slippery” feel of softened water, so we will be putting in a bypass to allow for the addition of an ion exchange softener later if necessary. Do you believe the GreenWave system would work for us?</em></strong> <strong>Reply:</strong> Charlie Sanderson the late founder of Superior was a good man, and a friend. God rest his Soul. However, in my opinion and after 37 years of experience of dealing with this, I think the technology is worthless. You say "almost no iron." How much is that? If it is below .1 to .2 ppm, then the GreenWave would be excellent.
mark
December 6, 2008 at 5:14 PM
Jami wrote: Do you use a salt system? If so, Why? <strong><em>I have bad tasting water. Tastes like… Dirt with a little bit of dead minnows. I live in Texas. A lot of dirt, deep down black clay that was over farmed for cotton but not any more, and man made lakes. Where does my water come from? I do not know, but it tastes terrible. This small town probably has filtration below the standard of a sink filter. The scaling is so bad, IT BROKE MY PUR WATER FILTER ON THE FAUCET BY JAMMING IT UP. The scaling is so serious it looks like someone spit a huge toothpaste spit dropping on the faucet and left it there to dry. I understand how it got on the mirror (my wife brushes with her mouth open) but I don’t understand why it’s on the sink in the unused restroom fixtures and all over the shower walls. Mysteries surround me. Water flow is slow here. I have to turn on hot and cold to get a good flow that you get out of a modern city home. This is not because of the low-flow taps. It is how low the pressure is from the city. With that sid, I want to get rid of the water spots and the taste without making my flow any lower. Should I get a salt-free with carbon filter and osmosis optional with a pre filter or should I get a salt system with reverse osmosis? I don’t mind slick and I’m not thinking I’m saving a ton of money on cleaning products, because the money saved on cleaning product is used up somehow somewhere else like in BACKWASH or media exchange. We do not have a ban on salt systems currently but should that be something to consider. I like going green, as in I have all CFL and I’m looking for more insulation for the house to get lower footprint, but I don’t want to buy bamboo floors if they last me 4 years and I have to replace them. That’s because I’m poor. Salt is cheap isn’t it? Also, taking in consideration all these things, what do I do.. I know a bunch of you have these questions going on and just won’t ask it out of trying to look intelligent. LOL just joking but I’m seriously serious. POST ME YOUR ANSWER PLEASE! Don’t tell me you need more data either. Just take what I gave you and give me your best guess then. I plan on running with your answer so please - you tell me what to do but be serious with your answer. Keywords: Small city in Texas, water tastes bad and seems, low water flow (I welcome chlorine taste in this case), don’t mind slick, do care about environment, most important keyword: LONG TIME LOW INCOME USAGE A MUST, LOW MAINTENANCE but I don’t mind to carry a bag of salt. Don’t waste my water is what I mean. I shower everyday, just me and wife in 4 bedroom house, cook at home every day, wash dishes every day, heavy water usage for two people, copper piping, osmosis or no osmosis… end keywords: What else do you need? White scaling… Please, what would you do? Give me your best recommendation.</em></strong> <strong>Reply,</strong> After that you want a serious answer? OK, I'll try. I have a salt-based water softener in my house because of the following: 1. I like the "slick" feeling of soft water; 2. I have very hard water and save a ton on soap, cleansers, detergent and razor blades; 3. I drink Reverse Osmosis water because I don't like the soft water taste. It sounds to me like you need a softener like I have. It is a 2.5 cu/ft "custom" unit that has carbon and cation-exchange resin to soften the and remove the chlorine, tastes and odors. Don't let "custom' scare you - it doesn't cost much more. Call US WATER for an estimate.
fred feige
December 6, 2008 at 7:17 PM
hi, We have a much different need for water treatment...we install geothermal heating systems and want to treat the water to prevent scale build-up on heat exchangers. On the "ground loop" side of the system we have a closed loop filled with on-site water, sometimes hard. after filling we usually add 20% methanol as antifreeze, and it operates at 32 to 50 deg F and the heat exchanger extracts heat from this loop and it returns 6 deg colder. we use hdpe pipe for the loops and copper heat exchangers and bronze circulator pumps. the other closed loop on the heating side heats water from 70 to 120 deg F. there we use pex or copper pipe and sometimes iron circ pumps. we need to treat the water usually only once at the time of fill-up and a unit (if it exists) should be portable to take to job sites too. any ideas? cheers, fred
mark
December 6, 2008 at 10:44 PM
Fred, Could you e-mail me any info on your system before I answer? Send it to mark@uswatersystems.com
Jami
December 7, 2008 at 5:15 PM
Thanks for replying. You're meaning "After that you want a serious answer?" is not clear to me. I do want a clear answer. I figure if you're the expert I'll go with your setup then. I know water differs from place to place, but you have access to testing these differences in systems. I read online that salt systems are old technology, but I also understand what isn't broke don't fix. Improvements is another thing and our further understanding of technology and our impact on this earth is something important to consider. With that said, putting aside what we like over what is better without much self sacrifice is a trade and balance that can be made. Without tree huggers who would bring to light what greed and self interest can't see? Do you still think a salt based system is best? Isn't salt based systems straining on city water cleaning systems and accelerates damage over time because of the conductive properties of salt? Isn't dumping water for cleaning water a waste in itself? Are the savings you get on detergents paid back in water waste due to back washing? I'm not a tree hugger but I do wish to be a part of one side of the balance by refrain from being a contributor to damaging things on where possible. The costs the company incurs is shelled right back at the consumer down the road in rising prices. I'm just trying to connect the dots and imagine I'm a company owner who has his bills turned up by the consumers waste. Do you recommend salt systems still with your understanding of salt systems? If so, I'll get one. Also, can't I just by the tank, media and fleck or clack parts separate and save money? If you haven't guessed yet, getting a water system isn't the question in my case. What kind to get is what I'm after. I was considering the whole house carbon filter for odor, TAC system and a reverse osmosis. I was thinking of not getting the reverse osmosis because I hear natural minerals are good for you. I look at the area of my lawn that has rain water drainage planes and see the grass is immensely green and doing well. I grew up on tap water and didn't get phased by it. I'm just looking to get rid of water spots and be able to drink clean water at the tap and save money if I can on laundry soap. This is my whole goal. If salt systems are just a premium of performace over TAC systems in conjunction with whole house filtration then I'm going to get that. Also, if reverse osmosis is a definite must have for clean water then I'll get it. I'm banging my head over these issues. Please use your expertise to clear me up. Thanks for your serious answer. I'm not you and I have no experience with slick feel to say what I like or don't like I can live without slick as I do now, but the slick is cool if it's cool. Just let me know with consideration to the other items I mentioned. Seriously, Thanks for this great blog. My decision will be based on your reply to this entry and I will not blog here unless it is to respond with my results to help those who have the same situation as I do.
Bob
December 7, 2008 at 9:20 PM
Researching water softener for our 1388 sq ft home - decided against the magnetic solutions and checked out Puronics Clarius system. Water quality report from 2007 shows that hardness is 296 ppm (17 gpg). Would like to go with a salt-free-softener like the GWT-1000, but wondering if it's the proper size. Don Vandervort's Hometips site uses formula to calculate water softener size = people in home x 75 gal/day x GPG hardness x 3 days between recharges. For us, that would be 3 x 75 x 17 x 3 = 11475 grain sized unit. How does this translate in the salt-free softener which is rated at GPM? Thanks for your time.
mark
December 7, 2008 at 10:14 PM
Jami, What I meant by "you want a serious answer" is that what you write is comical in the way you say things (I mean that in a good way) and was funny to me. I was just saying that it was hard to follow up with a serious answer. OK, here's the scoop on Salt-Based Softeners verses Salt-Free Conditioners: It is true that water softeners which use salt, do raise the chloride levels in cities where they discharge is into the city sewers. However, I must stress that it is "slight" because other things like salting roads where it freezes are much more significant contributors to elevated chloride levels. A salt-free conditioner obviously does not use any salt and some use no electricity and do not waste water by backwashing. Some poeple do not want to carry salt and prefer this way. Other people want to be as "green" as possible and believe that a salt-free system is the best way to be "green." It seems so simple right? Well, not really. Here's why: With a salt-based water softener, you remove the calcium and magneisum (hard minerals) from the water and replace them with sodium (soft mineral). While it does increase chloride levels, it eliminates many cleaners and chemicals that are often needed with hard water (LimeAway, etc.). A salt-based water softener will also cut soap consumption in the laundry, bath, dishwasher and other places by 50% or more. This means that less detergent and chemicals, like phosphates are discharged into the environment. What's worse for the environment - chloride from water softeners or excess detergents? I can't tell you which is better. I see both sides of the equation, but can't say that one way is better than another. I can say that if a person has skin issues a salt-based conditioner may be the best way and if you like the "slick" feeling it is the ONLY way. However, if you want to be as "Green" as possible, you may feel that a salt-free system is better. I guess it depends upon your point of view. In regards to drinking water, there are also two schools of thought. One is that the calcium and magnesium are "good minerals" and thus good for you. A reverse osmosis system removes the minerals and the sodium from the water, as well as about 38,000 other potential contaminants. OK, maybe the minerals are good for you, but I contend that water is not a significat source of calcium or magnesium, and that pure water is the best way to go because the body uses water to cool itself and eliminate waste, and I believe that the more pure the water, the better it is. However, there are other schools of thought, and the World Health Organization has taken the position that there is a connection between water low in minerals and heart disease. The evidence is not overwhelming either way. I think our diets and supplemnets make up for any lack of minerals in the water, but that is just my opinion. For the record, I drink reverse osmosis water and have for 35 years. Finally, you could buy parts and build a softener, but I doubt it would be cheaper - it usually costs much more to do that, and remember, the Devil is in the details - if it's not set up properly (distributor, backwash flow control, injectors, drain line flow control, refill flow control and programming) it probably won't work very well. I believe you would be sorry if you did that.
mark
December 7, 2008 at 10:18 PM
Bob, The salt-free systems are not concerned with grains, just Flow Rate and unless you have more than 2.5 baths, the GWT-1000 is rated at 10 GPM which should be just fine. With less than 3 baths you will not need more than 10 GPM.
Greg Hilliard
December 8, 2008 at 3:12 AM
Ok, I finally remembered to bring in a sample of my "Greenwave" conditioned water to check for ca+ Oxalate crystallization. I spun the sample at 5000g for 20 minutes and took the non-visible sediment and placed it on an ordinary glass slide. I put that slide on a slide warmer to speed up drying, and then stained it using conventional hematological Wright stain. I then looked at it under 100x magnification for any crystal structures. While I did see evidence of crystallization, I didn't see any "normal" ca+ oxalate structures. I suppose that the oxalate structures dissolve out of sol'n in time? Anyway, we have had the system for about 5 weeks now, and the shower still looks new. Yesterday I used a few drops of lime away to remove what was probably magnesium build up on the aluminum door frame. It came off as if it were dust. I am still a believer in the system. Oh, and Mark, someone from work will probably be purchasing a Greenwave system here in a few days. Do I get anything for referrals? ;-) Greg
mark
December 8, 2008 at 8:06 AM
Greg, Yes, we give a years supply of salt! :simile: Just Kidding! Seriously, we have a Gift Card Referral Program. Let us know who it is or make sure they tell us who referred them.
Isi
December 10, 2008 at 7:27 AM
Thanks Mark, I have so many other questions about installation, but I will just give the company a call and ask. You've been very helpful. Isi
Jami
December 10, 2008 at 1:25 PM
MARK, I love your response and was glad that you took my comical entry as comical. I was laughing when I wrote it, but was seriously hoping for a serious answer. You have seen right through me and given me the long time needed answer. No longer will I bang my head. I feel a lifting of my stress and I resolve to buy a salt based system with a reverse osmosis. Now what is the "BEST BUY" product to get. I have a 2 bathroom home but only one in use. My wife cooks everyday so we use a lot of water, but what is a lot for us may be nothing to others. My water, trash and something else bill is like $45 - $50 a month. Is that high for my area? I don't know. We are conservative. I'll wear a jacket in the house to lose a degree on the heater. I want green, but you've convinced me of the salt system. Please send me recommended product links. I'm in Forney, TX and need some free shipping or something. Please help me with my shopping needs. Is it in your line of work to help with that? Thanks so much for the great help and look forward to updating when I get updated on my home water cleaning system. Love your site.
Andy
December 10, 2008 at 9:13 PM
Well that was an interesting read through the blog. Fun stuff and great blogging. Our organization has an 800' deep well running at about 25gpm sustained feeding two 20,000 gal storage tanks supplying water to dual 10hp fresh water pumps for site irrigation and domestic water for a church and a childcare. The 2600 TDS water is lousy but consistently lousy. We are installing a 20,000gpd RO system with 13 Filmtec SW30-4040 membranes. We ran DOW ROSA computations and we are getting what we want at 190psi feed. We needed the SW membranes because we have boron readings of 2.02ppm and need to get them down near .5ppm for the landscaping. We could have boosted the pH to 9.5 to get rid of the boron, but we want to stay out of the chemical dosing business if possible. Its a tradeoff. Water test significant items in ppm are: Sodium - 791 Mg - 5 Ca - 4 Carbonate - .5 Bicarbonate - 51 Nirate - .4 Chloride - 162 Sulfate - 1492 Silica - 0 Fe - 0 Nothing organic or nuclear found in the water. We pretty much have the RO thing figured out after much consultation with Dow and some pretty knowledgeable people. I'm not dealing with salespeople, but people who work with commercial RO systems, some for 20+ years. My question concerns pretreatment of the water. I had been planning on using a Watts Scalenet system. People I respect who have seen every kind of water gadget come and go remain skeptical of this technology in its suitablity as a pretreatment for the membranes. With the cost for a new set of membranes approaching $4000. we feel caution is prudent. Do we go with a proven chemical antiscalant pretreatment or try something new. Although we don't relish the thought of rolling drums of pretreatment into storage, we also don't relish the thought of buying another set of membranes. Are you aware of any source material, white paper or indepenedent testing that specifically addresses the suitablity of your product as a pretreatment for a commercial RO system? Any suggestions are appreciated. I've learned a bunch over the past few months but desiring to know more.
Andy
December 10, 2008 at 9:21 PM
Mark... Forgot - You have mentioned several times that your product outperforms the ScaleNet. What do you mean by this? In what way do you feel your product is superior and is it a measured difference or a subjective difference. Thanks
Andy
December 10, 2008 at 9:34 PM
Mark... As long as I'm asking; The permiate from our system is projecting to be TDS of 32ppm at pH 6.76. Calcium and Magnesium are at 0. We want to kill the cannibal water and run this through a calcite filter. Question: In your experience, after we run through the calcite filter (assuming we use the correct size calcite unit), what does your experience tell you our TDS and pH readings might be?
mark
December 11, 2008 at 7:04 PM
Jami, I have e-mailed you my recommendations.
mark
December 11, 2008 at 7:16 PM
Andy, The water does not have any scale potential so I do not know why you even considering a scale reduction system. Sulfates of that level will also prevent good operation for TAC, but it does not matter considering the rest of the chemistry. You should be considering what the SDI level is and how you will address it before the RO. That will be your biggest issue. I ran the a projection with 14 SW30-4040 membranes at 77 deg and 65% recovery and came up with a pressure requirement of 290 psi. I had to use 24 membranes to get the operating pressure down to 200 psi. Can you send me the ROSA data file they are using so I can see exactly what's going on. Also, I would never use a calcite filter in this case. I would raise the pH through injection and the use of a pH meter. You will get too many fluctations with a calcite filter.
Greg Hilliard
December 12, 2008 at 4:02 AM
MArk, I don't know where I got it in my head that TAC formed Ca+ oxalate crystals. Sorry for the misinformation. Where in the hell did I hear that? ps. I am wondering how much media was put in my tank? I see in the WATTS catalog they sell differing amounts according to tank size. I just want to be assured mine is set up properly. Thanks, Greg
mark
December 12, 2008 at 7:59 AM
Greg, We check them before they leave the warehouse to see the media level. There is only a few inches of it in the bottom of the tank. Remember that Watts Water does not sell the same product we do. It's called ScaleNet and it is not TAC.
Jami
December 13, 2008 at 9:45 PM
:( Please email again. I don't see it! Junk mail is no mail either. Waiting for your email. Thanks for your help <a href="mailto:binary102@hotmail.com" rel="nofollow"> Click Here </a>
Andy
December 15, 2008 at 2:16 AM
Thanks Mark, ROSA file sent.
Scott Merch
December 16, 2008 at 11:04 AM
Mark thanks for all the great information and your relentless preaching of the benefits of 'conditioners'. We too sell Next Scalestop and have had some pretty remarkable results in our 3 years with the product. As I have told many of our dealers and customers, Next Scalestop is just another tool in the tool bag. Our job as water professionals is to be able to apply the correct tool to the problem at hand. Next Scalestop is not a panacea, nor is it the silver bullet for water treatment. If you have good 'clean' water, that is just hard Scalestop is an option that is available. I have always cautioned to not get too romantically involved with the idea of not carrying the salt to the basement, at least here in the North East. If you like the slippery, slimy, soft feel of a water softener, or if you have previously had a softener, I recommend staying with a softener. Remember, Next Scalestop is a great softener alternative, not a softener replacement. Regards, Scott
Roland
December 16, 2008 at 8:20 PM
Hello, I've been doing quite a bit of reading and quite a bit of research on water solutions. You see, I grew up and actually still live on a farm which had a 1250 foot deep water well. The sulfur got progressively worse throughout the years, and we tried nearly every system known to man. Most reading this won't have any clue what I mean when I say "high content", so just let me explain no refrigerator or freezer which came with a 10 year warranty _ever_ made it past two years and no warranty was ever honored. The content in the air was high enough brand new copper pipe looked just like original copper pipe within a few weeks. After many dry holes and disappointments, we finally hit water in a blue shale vein at 194 feet. The water doesn't taste bad and there is more than enough for two houses. Water quality seems to be getting better the more we use the well, but now we have to deal with something we've never had to face. Hard water and high TDS. Sulfur, being a nearly universal reaction agent, took everything out of the old icky water. We used to have 2 GPG out of the hydrant in the yard before it went to a filter. The rep for our existing green-sand filter stopped by several months ago to test our new tap water. Water coming out of the kitchen faucet tested 48 GPG and 1400+ TDS at that time. I have an portable TDS tester on order because I want to see where it is now and conduct a few experiments. We have no problem with scale. None. My only complaint right now has to do with the towels. They tend to get a funky odor you don't notice until you are drying off. The same kind of odor towels get when they only get part way dry and left in the dryer. That isn't happening in this case. My guess is, towels being more absorbant by design, aren't able to get completely rinsed even with the extra-rinse turned on. I'm looking at both the Green Wave and this system. http://www.advancedwaterfilters.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AWF&Product_Code=EWS-1354&Category_Code=WH I'm leaning more towards the EWS model, primarily because it back flushes. I don't pay by the gallon for water, and the green sand system already in place back flushes, so not a big deal to run another hose to the drain. If back flushing can extend the media life I'm all for back flushing. A carbon filter will obviously do something for the water. I'm conducting a test now with a Baritta picture. Once the tester arrives I can conduct further tests. The water does taste different when it comes out of the Baritta, not better, not worse, just different. My real question for here is: What, if any, affect does the GreenWave have on TDS? A salt option is not possible due to some having diabetes, blood pressure, and heart problems. An RO system is basically a biological time bomb waiting to go off once you install it due to the atmospheric holding tank picking up whatever "happens" to be in the atmosphere. A UV filter after the tank is not a "fix" for the amospheric problem of the tank. (Bug spray, car exhaust, etc.)
mark
December 17, 2008 at 9:29 PM
Scott, Very well said. Roland, I will respond back more on the link to another system you posted about, but I will say this: "In my opinion, there is no scientific validity to the system in question, and in fact I do not believe that it can have any effect on scale and if it doesn't then why not just buy a backwashing carbon filter for 1/3 the price." Vast hyperbole with no root in fact.
Roland
December 17, 2008 at 10:28 PM
Thanks for your reply Mark, I don't think a carbon filter by itself will solve the one problem I wish to solve...towels... need to bring the hardness down along with reduction of TDS. I worry about the carbon filter of the green wave because it doesn't back flush. If it is pulling anything out of the water, should clog up rather quickly. I've had to take those green sand units out of the basement when they clogged up. Three man operation at a minimum.
mark
December 19, 2008 at 10:29 AM
Roland, We do have a backwashing Green Wave system, which used to be on the web site. It is in two tanks. The backwashing tank is totally separate from the TAC tank and it will handle hardness up to 80 GPG. The manufacturer of the EPS says it will only handle up to 30 GPG. You cannot reduce the TDS without RO, deionization or distillation. Period! We are currently re-designing our web-site, so if you are intersted, you will have to call about it. 800-608-USWATER For the record, the EWS system uses a carbon filter which is very good, but their scale reduction claims are totally bogus in my opinion.
mark
December 19, 2008 at 10:30 AM
Jami, Have you gotton my e-mails?
Jami Stallings
December 21, 2008 at 2:13 AM
Nope. Still waiting. B i n a r y 1 0 2 @ hotmail . com What are you putting in the subject and why not just post it here in this room? Thanks and happy holidays.
mark
December 21, 2008 at 9:56 AM
Jami, Your spam filter is getting it. I just said to call me for a deal. 800-608-USWATER I will await your call...
Roland
December 21, 2008 at 7:56 PM
RO is a biological time bomb waiting to go off. That atmospheric holding tank is going to be the next thing banned country wide with respect to water treatment. Salt is not an option due to some people's health problems. My tester hasn't yet arrived. I want to test the tap water with it and test the water out of the Brita filter. The problem with electronic TDS testers is that they will measure anything in the water which happens to conduct electricity, even something which is suspended and removable via carbon filter. I'll post back once my tester has arrived and I have a chance to test the water.
Roland
December 21, 2008 at 8:14 PM
Here is one thing which bothers me about all of these salt-free systems. Let's skip over the debate between fraud and scientific proof for a moment and just get to the part bothering me. Most every one make some kind of claim of altering the manganese and calcium in the water so it won't react with soap, etc. Most statements seem to say it is in some kind of crystaline state when it goes through treatment. Why isn't there a back flushing carbon (or other type) filter afterwards to remove the crystaline entities. Perhaps the exhaust fumes are starting to get to me, having to keep diesel generators running since losing power Thursday evening, but it would seem if those two minerals had been transfered into some kind of crystaline form, there should be a way to filter them out which doesn't involve RO.
mark
December 21, 2008 at 10:09 PM
Roland, You are referring to the "seed crystals" produced in the process. They can be filtered out, but not with a backwash filter because the micron rating is too high. If you used a sub-micron filter, you'd probably have to change it a few times a day. RO is the only practical way, but at 48 GPG that could be a chore.
Roland
December 23, 2008 at 8:32 AM
My TDS-3 tester arrived. Water out of the tap is 1150-1160 now and out of the Brita filter 1120-1130. That's down quite a bit from the 1400 it tested at a month after the well was put in. In another couple of months I should know where it is going to settle. You need to pump a lot of water out of a blue shale vein to get it cleaned up. I'm kind of wondering if the hardness hasn't changed with the TDS. Ivory soap does actually work in the shower and it shouldn't at 48 GPG.
Jami
December 30, 2008 at 12:24 AM
Do the water analysis kits in the local hardware store work well? Is there a true home test kit that is inexpensive but thorough enough to determine the system needed? Can the information on water quality and parts be provided by local water municipalities?
Jami
December 30, 2008 at 1:02 AM
I plan to install point of use water heaters at each tap in conjunction with a pex system through a manifold. With this system in place would there be any degredation or accelerated from the salt system? I'm trying to purchase uponor or rehau but they want to sell to licensed plumbers only. Uponor makes PEX-A versus PEX-B or C. These systems have residential fire systems that uses cold water supply in the loop to keep the fire system water fresh. I hear these type of systems may be mandated for new home construction and required by 2011 or something. This is real and not a joke and being fought by the builders, but becoming a reality. I had a fire suppression in my apartment prior to me moving in this house. Wouldn't that type of system, a growing number of diabetics and overall health concerns be of big consideration towards going more green? I know a water softener isn't replaced by a conditioner, but with the poor rap that conditioners get over softeners, it may be home owners are left in a pinch in the future with these changes mentioned above. Have you considered these issues in your recommendation and would you still recommend the salt over salt free? Please do not become typical and blow out a breath with the answer like, "Okay, go green and get a greenwave. End of discussion." Please give real thought to these things and give factual comments which would be honest and helpful. Also, I'm reviewing the competitors for pricing and I'm comparing pricing. You mentioned competition pricing and product is inferior to yours yet it boasts the same TAC system. Are there different TAC technologies or is it TAC is TAC? I'm sorry for my ignorance of the water technologies and studies. I'm not a chemist. Thanks for your help mate.
mark
December 30, 2008 at 8:58 AM
Jami, I am not sure what the hardware stores are selling, but you can usually contact your municipality for a report or frequently it is already listed online. Insofar as the salt-based softeners verses salt-free conditioners, I have always said that there are no right answers. You will use loss soaps, chemicals and detergents with a salt system, but you will discharge chloride (which may or may not be bad, depending upon where you live). Some people love the "silky" feel of soft water and some people hate the "slimy" feel of soft water. Some people hate carrying salt. Others see it as an "Olympic Sport." I guess a lot of things depend upon your perspective and biases. We try to be as green as possible, but to this day, I cannot say that using a TAC system instead of salt and wasting more chemicals is "greener" or not - it may well be. The salt-based conditioners will not hurt the heaters - it will only help. I can't give you a right answer, if there isn't one. That's why we provide the best in both products. On the "other" TAC system - I have no idea which one you are looking at. There are some blatant falsehoods being told on the internet. NO>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> :smile:
mark
December 30, 2008 at 8:59 AM
Jami, There is only 1 TAC and losts of "copycats" who are not certified.
Jami
January 1, 2009 at 1:06 AM
http://www.ntmwd.com/downloads/WaterQualityAnalysis/wqa1108.pdf or for the past few years. http://www.ntmwd.com/WaterQuality.html
chad
January 4, 2009 at 3:05 PM
Hello Mark, I have unconditioned/treated well water and I'm looking to install a system that can reduce or eliminate the hard water deposits and allow me to use a kitchen RO machine for drinking water. From what I was told my water hardness will not work well with an RO system (380) I'm looking at salt less mainly due the discharge from regeneration. I have an older septic system and would like to avoid the excess stress on the system from the softener and the RO combined, if possible. I thought possibly the GWP-1000 or GWP-2000 might work. I had my water tested and the results are below (Mg/l). Nothing other than what's below was detected. Calcium - 93 Copper - 0.018 Magnesium - 37 Sodium - 44 Zinc - 0.064 Alkalinity (Total as CaCO3) - 330 Chloride - 94 Nitrate as N - 0.9 Sulfate - 34 Hardness - 380 pH - 7.1 TDS - 500 As a side note, the water tastes great but I rarely drink it since it's unfiltered. No smell, no rust stains, just major hard water build up. From reading previous posts I may need something to remove the Magnesium first? Do you think TAC technology would be effective for my situation (2 bath house)? Thanks for your time and for the great resource.
mark
January 4, 2009 at 3:47 PM
Jami, Based upon your water analysis, I think even if it were me, I would use the salt-free TAC system. I think this would give you excellent quqlity water and require no salt in the process. By the way, that is a good report put out by your municipality.
mark
January 5, 2009 at 12:18 PM
Chad, Your application is perfect for TAC system. The magnesium is no problem. Maybe you are confusing it with manganese. I think you would be very satisfied with a TAC system and the RO would work well with it.
chad
January 6, 2009 at 12:02 AM
Thats the answer I was hoping for. Thanks again.
Jami
January 6, 2009 at 6:03 AM
Mark, Thanks for looking at that page for me. I have no ideal about it and will base my purchase on what you recommend. Would there be much difference from the water output readings to my home? Regardless of what you read there the water smells and tastes bad and seems to be slightly amplified by the heated water from the water heater. I would flush the water heater, but the house was completed in late 2006 and the smell and taste is in cold & hot on all taps. My wife does laundry once a week and the washer is a front loader and flushes the detergents into the system from a dispensing drawer. This causes water to pool in there and it smells rotten when it sits prior to next weeks washing. Do you still recommend the TAC for this? I'm glad I wasn't hasty towards getting the salt based system initially considering you changed your recommendation. I do understand that your recommendation is based on the readings which is more fact based versus my humorous request for your best guess. Thanks for your patience and understanding and tolerance. Please solidify your recommendations and if you don't mind can you elaborate why? Remember I know nothing about this stuff, but if you need your computer fixed.... Forgive me if it feels I'm giving you run-around. Sincerely, J. Stallings http://lawsofreality.blogspot.com/
gary
January 7, 2009 at 4:08 PM
Is there a schematic available showing the hookup of your Green Wave system? I would like to do some layouts based on my available space and the location of the water service.
mark
January 8, 2009 at 6:30 AM
Gary, There is no schematic currently. Let me know the model and I will supply you with the necessary info.
mark
January 9, 2009 at 5:10 PM
Jami, I am probably going to lose all credibility, but I read through your water analysis and at first, it seemed pretty benign, however after your last post, I decided to e-mail the analyis to an engineer at the company that makes the TAC media. Simply put, due to the water chemistry, the TAC will not work. PERIOD! There is no carbonate in the water to facilitate the reaction. End of Story. You cannot use the TAC. You must use a salt-based water softener. The odor is probbaly coming from Chloromines in the water and I would suggest a backwashing carbon filter with a 50/50 blend of GAC and Catalytic Carbon, in addition to the water softener. I know this might be confusing so do not hesitate to call.
Jami
January 9, 2009 at 5:35 PM
Okay, now that I'm clear and clearly confused (joking) how about this. Going back to a salt-based system. What impact does this have on Point of Use Water Heaters and PEX? Also, can the backwashing carbon filter water be dumped into the yard unlike the salt based systems? I was always planning on a carbon filter. Will I see impact on water pressure with a salt and carbon filter? You don't lose credibility and I appreciate your hard work to get the facts. I would think if you switched your answer back to salt system to get your face back, then that would be a disappointment. I really need truth from the water facts, but what kind of realiability is that water numbers as it goes from North Dallas to my house? The water comes from lakes I believe. Thanks for tge detailed review of the water specs
mark
January 9, 2009 at 5:40 PM
Jami, You may actually have to blend about 10-20% hard water back to prevent corrosion. This is easily accomplished by just opening a valve a "tad." The carbon filter discharge can be put on the yard with no problem. It's the lack of carbonate in the water that causes this. You should be fine with a softener. No problem with PEX or POU water heaters! Call me if you need further help in ordering...
charlene
January 10, 2009 at 9:04 PM
Hi Mark, I have a safewater salt-free system that was installed three years ago. It has a big blue filter, then a second cylinder that houses the catalytic alloy. Our water is from a well. It's slightly hard, but extremely high in sediment. After I change the carbon filter, the water is great -smells clean, tastes great, doesn't seem to stain as badly - for a couple months, then it gets smelly and starts depositing tons of scale and tastes bad until I change the carbon filter again. This makes me think that it's just the carbon filter that's doing something. I tried the test you suggested to someone else where I boiled a pan of water dry. Some of the sediment was white and powdery and came off on my finger; the rest washed away fairly easily with a cloth. If our water isn't that hard to begin with (I think it's around 10 gg), is it possible we only actually need a sediment filter. If so, can I just keep using the unit we have, or is there another that might work better without reinvesting in an expensive no-salt softening system (I know. I know - that it doesn't really soften). Thanks for your advice. -Charlene
mark
January 10, 2009 at 10:35 PM
Charlene, I really don't have a clue until I would see a water analysis of your water. You can use this one: https://www.uswatersystems.com/catalog/ntl-watercheck-test-kit.htm Once you get it tested I can answer the question.
gary
January 15, 2009 at 11:30 PM
The GWP2000 should work for my home. I have requested an analysis from our water company. Several months ago they were forced to change the source of most of our water (southern Calif.) and the new source is much harder. They readily admit to the increased hardness. I would appreciate any hookup info you might be able to send my way.
Steven
January 16, 2009 at 8:45 PM
Mark: I have very much enjoyed reading this site. Please give me your thoughts on our situation. My family moved into a new home in August and I am still trying to decide what to do. We have well water with lines going to our home (with a separate line to the backyard), a water line to a soon-to-be built barn, and a fishing dock. Our 900 foot well produces an abundant amount of water, which is good because we will be using a lot of water in the years to come for watering the yard, animals and a pool this coming summer, along with three bedrooms/baths. A silt that is like very fine grains of sand comes from the well that is quite noticeable when filling the bathtubs and hot tub and an analysis of the water provided the following results: Hardness 15 GPG, Acidity 7.4 pH, TDS 227, Iron 5 PPM, but thankfully no iron bacteria or hydrogen sulfide. We need a system that will filter the water for the silt on all of our water lines and I would prefer a unit that back flushes rather than changing filters every month or two. If we utilize a salt system to soften the water, the discharge will make its way from the shop building/well house down the hill to the fishing pond, so I would much rather prefer a salt-free system. Having soft, silky water is not the goal. I need to filter the water from its source (well head) for all lines, and lessen the impact of the hardness factor at my home. Can you please give my your thoughts? Many thanks in advance for your response. Steven and family.
mark
January 17, 2009 at 10:46 AM
Steven, A few questions: 1. What size water lines do you have? (From well and inside house) 2. Do you have a well house or some place where a treatment systems could be installed or will there have to be ones at different locations? 3. What part of the country are located?
MIKE
January 17, 2009 at 6:10 PM
Mark I have all galvanized piping in my house. My water is well water. What would be my best course to get rid of all the build in my piping. My faucets are always glogging up with pieces of scale. Thanks Mike
mark
January 18, 2009 at 12:21 PM
Mike, I really don't have enough information about your water. Can you tell me if you have the following and what levels you may have: Hardness Iron Manganese Sulfur Chlorine TDS Stains Odors Give me some more info and I'll try and answer.
rick r
January 18, 2009 at 8:02 PM
mark I want to descale our city well water. Our house in on a slab and the water comes into the house in the master bath under the vanity. There are 3" of exposed line between the valve and an elbow. The pipe is ~3/4" from a stud. So working conditions are tight. I would like to install the lime blaster at this point. In a few years when the hot water heater goes, I want to install a tankless system and a standard water softener in closet. The furnace and heater are currently in the garage closet with no room for the softener. There will be room once I replace the heater. The garage and closet are on the opposite side of the house from the main water valve in the master bath. Rick R.
Mike
January 18, 2009 at 10:41 PM
Mark I was afraid you would say that. I have never had my water tested so i cant give you any numbers at this time and I wont be home for another week. We do get stains on the shower glass and in the dishwasher. I have no bad odors. It takes forever for the toilets to fill the tank. I apalogize for not having more info. Thanks Mike
mark
January 19, 2009 at 10:42 AM
Rick R, Actally, the best place for the LimeBlaster is on the cold water inlet to the water heater. Since it is RF (Radio Frequency) the signals go both ways, so there s no reason to put it just on the inlet. Mike, Get a water analysis and I can help you. Try this: https://www.uswatersystems.com/catalog/ntl-watercheck-test-kit.htm
MIKE
January 19, 2009 at 2:16 PM
Mark I am really only wanting to remove the scale in the pipe without having to replumb the whole house. If you think its best to get a test done. I can do that when I get home. Thanks again
sven
January 19, 2009 at 3:20 PM
Dear water doc, Now you can buy the german BWT AQA total energy in the us. The aqa total is DVGW aproved. More info you can find on http://www.bwtusa.us Sven
Bryan
January 19, 2009 at 6:02 PM
Where can I purchase one of these systems for my home? I live in the Santa Clarita, CA 91387. Thanks
mark
January 19, 2009 at 6:55 PM
Bryan, https://www.uswatersystems.com/
gary
January 19, 2009 at 7:44 PM
Here is the most recent available analysis of my water: Hardness - 300 (CaCO3) Iron - none detected Manganese - 29 Sulfur (Sulfate) - 272 Chlorine (chloride) - 103 TDS - 668 Stains - none detected Odor - none detected The above was from a November 2008 report (the last available at the moment). The water dept. said that the TDS has now gone to 900 but didn't say anything about the other levels. It looks like we should have a 3000 series unit as the house has 4 baths (only two residents most of the time). I would still like some info on the hookup required. I have a point in the incoming line with 1-1/4 npt connections (with a bypass valve) available that was installed in anticipation of a conditioner installation. I would like to run a soft (hose) connection (into the gagage) to the conditioner. I don't know if the 1-1/4 size is necessary. The incoming line an the meter are 1 inch.
mark
January 20, 2009 at 3:25 PM
Gary, Based upon you water analysis, I doubt that a No-Salt system will work for you. I wonder about the sulfur or sulfate? Is that right? It doesn't sound right...
Jeanne
January 20, 2009 at 6:22 PM
Hardness 470 mg/L Iron .8 mg/L Manganese .109 mg/L Sulfate 73 mg/L (note sulfate, not sulfur) Chloride 60 mg/L (note chloride, not chlorine) TDS 520 mg/L PH runs between 6.5 and 7.5 Stains yellow Odors none noticed, though hot water will have rotten egg smell when we return from a several week vacation We use a whole house 250 micron to 500 micron to filter sediment prior to the water softener. The above numbers are after the water softener, which we don't think is working due to fouling of the resin bed with iron. We've been advised to purchase a "red water" filter to put in place prior to the water softener. We thought that we would then replace the resin bed of our water softener which would cost $180, but are looking into replacing it if the technology is improved since 1996 when we purchased our current "Water Boss" water softener. We are intriqued by the salt free system that you've mentioned. Though you don't recommend Pelican, they say they use nanotechnology (which scares me), but they also say that less soap is required to clean, just produces less suds. Would you care to comment on nanotechnology, as well as on less suds, but no more soap required? Also, what would you recommend to us, based on our water condition? Second: our sons have .008 mg/L arsenic in their water, and we purchased a Zero Technology water filtration system for them, and after filtering, the arsenic was ND, at a detection level of .002 mg/L, so it seems to be working. Are you familiar with Zero technology? (www.zerowater.com) I wish they had an in-line system, instead of a stand alone water cooler type system. What do you think of their system? We originally purchased it at Sam's club, and have found their filters at Home Depot. While it apparently works well removing the arsenic, the filters need to be changed every couple of months, resulting in high expense. Thank you. Jeanne
mark
January 21, 2009 at 9:31 AM
Jeanne, Nanotechnology sounds pretty cool, doesn't it? What does that mean? Just another "buzzword" to obfuscate the fact that the technology has no scientific proof. The suds issue is really subjective and again, no scientific proof exists. If you have a water softener and go to a no-salt system, you will probably hate the amount of suds it makes. I would steer clear of no-salt systems for well water with iron and manganese. I believe that technology will be developed in the next few years which will be successful in that endeavor, but this isn't it. The WaterBoss water softener uses a "packed resin bed" which I have not been sold on as it "loads up" with the iron it is trying to remove. With your water I would recommend a system called The Sanitizer" manufactured by Water-Right (there is a new post on it above). We have sold that product for a couple of years and it is amazing in what it does. On arsenic: If you want to remove it for just drinking water, then a good reverse osmosis system will do that. It you want to remove it for the whole house, that can be done also. I recommend the Adedge system for that.
Jeanne
January 21, 2009 at 5:17 PM
Mark, Thank you for the recommendation. We looked at the Water-Right system. We don't have bacteria issues. The odor is probably due to the anode rod in the hot water tank. Do you still recommend this unit, or is this overkill for our needs? Do you have an idea of how much these units go for? Our Water Boss unit is 11 years old. We think the yellow stain in our shower builds up very slowly over time, and perhaps because we're overdue for a resin bed cleaning, which we try to do twice per year, but in reality only get to about once per year, since it is such a time consuming process. I came across a product called "The Iron Eliminator" by Crystal Clean (www.crystalclean.us). This product consists of a pump that attaches to the outside of the brine tank, and drips a liquid into the brine solution, that is supposed to act on the iron during regeneration, freeing the oxygen/iron bond, and keep the resin bed clean. Do you have any experience with this product? They claim it can double the life of the resin bed of the water softener. It would be really great to be able to eliminate the time consuming twice per year resin bed cleaning that we must do to keep iron stains from appearing on our showers.
mark
January 21, 2009 at 5:40 PM
If you have iron or traces of sulfate, you probably have some organics which can create the smell. The Sanitizer is amazing on any iron water and you eliminate the chemical feed (which by the way, works when it works). What part of the country are you from?
Robert
January 22, 2009 at 8:19 AM
Mark, I'm considering using a GreenWave TAC Model:GWT-2000 to remove scale in our home water supply. We have 3 baths and two occupants. Our water is supplied from wells via a national water company so our water is treated. I had a local company come to our home to discuss installing a salt based system and they provided the following water info: Hardness: 23, Chlorine 1, Iron n/a, PH 7.4, TDS 576, and H2S n/a. We have no smell or color in our water but occasionally it tastes of chlorine. I have 3 questions: 1.Is this enough info to determine if the system I've noted above is worth trying? 2.What is the cost of the replacement media for this system? 3.Will the level of TDS in our water affect the life of the prefilter and if so, how often would you guess it would need replacing? Thank you for any help you can provide.
Jeanne
January 22, 2009 at 12:22 PM
Mark, We are in Saline, Michigan. We don't have an odor issue except when we come back from a several week vacation. We've experienced the odor issue for the first time in a previous home after installing a new water heater, and we learned that it was due to the anode rod in the hot water heater. Some people recommend removing the anode rod, but this would void the warranty. We've learned to live with the short-term odor that only occurs when the water has been left to sit for some time in the hot water heater, such as when we are aaway on vacation. Our priority is to come up with a system that does not require too much maintenance, such as the resin bed cleaning, and that will eliminate the iron stains. We've been told that the water softener won't handle insoluble iron, and we would need a "red water" iron filter to handle this. A test is being run to see how much insoluble iron we have. Also, the amount of oxygen is being looked at to see if we would be a candidate for the iron filter that uses oxygenated water to clear the iron. Otherwise, the potassium permanganate filter has been advised. We've also been told that a lot of iron may come out of the pipes, as much as .3 mg/l in the water test may come from that source (our house was built in 1971). A suggested solution to this would be to run a polyphosphate feeder through the pipes for 6 months. This is supposed to be FDA approved food grade additive. After six months there should be a coating on the pipes that will keep iron from coming off of the pipes. It was said that this may be a permanent solution of keeping the iron from coming off the pipes. We would no longer need to continue the polyphosphate feeder after 6 months. What is your opinion? Do you think the Water-Right system would eliminate the need for an iron filter, and for resin bed cleaning? What is the price range for this system? Thank you.
RUTH
January 22, 2009 at 1:35 PM
DEAR MARK, THANKS FOR THIS WEB-SITE. I WOULD LIKE A SALT FREE SYSTEM, I DON'T CARE ABOUT SUDSY SOAP OR HOW MY HAIR FEELS. I JUST WANT A SALT FREE SYSTEM, WITH LITTLE TO NO MATAINENCE, THAT WILL CLEAN OUT ANY SCALE IN MY PLUMBING AND PREVENT MORE FROM BUILDING UP. PROBLEM IS, I CAN'T AFFORD A THOUSAND DOLLARS. ANYTHING YOU COULD RECOMEND FOR ABOUT 300. TO 600. I'M A SENIOR WHO CAN'T AFFORD TO RETIRE AND COLLECT SS, SO I JUST KEEP WORKING, HAVE A LITTLE SAVINGS BUT MOSTLY LIVE PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK. PLEASE HELP
gary
January 23, 2009 at 12:45 PM
Mark, Thanks for the reply. I did recheck the number regarding the sulfate level. The sheet I have shows: Sulfate SO4 mg/L 272 The pH is 8.02 Are you saying that my only alternative is a salt system. I'm really trying to avoid that route. Thanks, Gary
RUTH
January 23, 2009 at 2:50 PM
what do you think about the uswatersystems, lime blaster .
gary
January 23, 2009 at 3:47 PM
Mark, I notice that my chloride content (103 mg/L) is much higher than many locations. Is this the reason your (TAC) system won't work? If so, is there a way to pre-filter the chlorides out? Thanks, Gary
Jeanne
January 23, 2009 at 4:30 PM
Mark, I've been doing further research into adding a filter to handle the insoluble iron. Although an iron filter that uses potassium permanganate has been recommended to us, I'm concerned with the toxicity of the chemical, especially since we've been told that sometimes, if the water softener regenerates often, the chemical might come through to our drinking water. Even if this wasn't a concern, I don't want to have to handle the chemical on a routine basis. Would you recommend another alternative, other than the oxygen type? Have you heard of the pyrolox system (http://www.abundantflowwater.com/html/pyrolox_system.html). Are there any others you might suggest? thank you.
mark
January 23, 2009 at 4:50 PM
Jeanne, We handle the Pyrolox system as well. It will be on our new website which should be up in a week or two. The drawback to Pyrolox is that it is EXTREMELY heavy and requires an extraordinary amount of backwash water and pressure. If it does not have that, it turns into cement in short order. Potassium Permanganate is my least favorite iron removal method. Too many nightmares... I think that the Sanitizer is right for you. Call me if you want more answers. 800-608-USWATER.
mark
January 23, 2009 at 4:52 PM
Ruth said: I WOULD LIKE A SALT FREE SYSTEM, I DON’T CARE ABOUT SUDSY SOAP OR HOW MY HAIR FEELS. I JUST WANT A SALT FREE SYSTEM, WITH LITTLE TO NO MATAINENCE, THAT WILL CLEAN OUT ANY SCALE IN MY PLUMBING AND PREVENT MORE FROM BUILDING UP. PROBLEM IS, I CAN’T AFFORD A THOUSAND DOLLARS. ANYTHING YOU COULD RECOMEND FOR ABOUT 300. TO 600. I’M A SENIOR WHO CAN’T AFFORD TO RETIRE AND COLLECT SS, SO I JUST KEEP WORKING, HAVE A LITTLE SAVINGS BUT MOSTLY LIVE PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK. PLEASE HELP. Ruth, Try the Limeblaster. It is your best alternative. https://www.uswatersystems.com/residential/limeblaster.html
mark
January 23, 2009 at 4:57 PM
Gary, I think you should get the most detailed water analysis possible as I don't really think the one you have is accurate. There is no practical way to filter the chlorides out. The sulfates are the real issue, so I would like to see a better analysis of your water. Try this one: https://www.uswatersystems.com/us-water-lab-water-test.html
mark
January 24, 2009 at 8:52 AM
Robert wrote: <em>Mark, I’m considering using a GreenWave TAC Model:GWT-2000 to remove scale in our home water supply. We have 3 baths and two occupants. Our water is supplied from wells via a national water company so our water is treated. I had a local company come to our home to discuss installing a salt based system and they provided the following water info: Hardness: 23, Chlorine 1, Iron n/a, PH 7.4, TDS 576, and H2S n/a. We have no smell or color in our water but occasionally it tastes of chlorine. I have 3 questions: 1.Is this enough info to determine if the system I’ve noted above is worth trying? 2.What is the cost of the replacement media for this system? 3.Will the level of TDS in our water affect the life of the prefilter and if so, how often would you guess it would need replacing? Thank you for any help you can provide.</em> <strong>Robert: 1. It sounds like this would be a good application for the GreenWave TAC System. It would be nice to get a breakdown of carbonate, bicarbonate and sodium levels of the water. The municipality may have that available. 2. The media costs $249 to replace. 3. The TDS will not affect the life of a pre-filter - it's the iron, solids and organics that affect that.</strong>
Robert
January 26, 2009 at 3:18 PM
Mark wrote: 1. It sounds like this would be a good application for the GreenWave TAC System. It would be nice to get a breakdown of carbonate, bicarbonate and sodium levels of the water. The municipality may have that available. Mark, I got this info from our state water regulation agency: Carbonate: <1 Bicarbonate: 394 Sodium: 44 These readings fit with using a TAC system? Thanks again.
William
January 28, 2009 at 2:24 AM
Mark: The hardness of the water in our household is 17gpm. I'm thinking of getting GWT-2000. What do you think if I add Limeblaster to it? I want to remove chlorine and scale as much as possible.
Andrew Vickery
February 5, 2009 at 7:38 AM
It is funny how after you told Becky how to test her system to see if it works that she never responded. Guess you caught her.
mark
February 5, 2009 at 11:09 PM
Robert, Yes, that should be fine. William, It's a waste of money to add the Limeblaster to the GreenWave. Save your money for something you want.
Mark S
February 6, 2009 at 8:52 PM
Is there a salt free water softener for commercial systems 1500 - 2000 gallons per day?
Sue
February 8, 2009 at 8:35 PM
Hi Mark, We've really enjoyed reading the blog and have learned quite a bit, but still confused. We would like to get a water softener, but with our state looking into banning salt based softeners - think it would be best to stay clear if we can. Please refer to the website link we've listed for our city's water quality values and give me your best opinion on what would work for us. Our home is 5 bed 2 3/4 bath with 6 people. Thank you, Sue
mark
February 8, 2009 at 9:03 PM
Mark S, We have systems that will flow any amount for residential or commercial applications. Here's the link to the commercial: https://www.uswaterindustrial.com/oneflow.html
mark
February 9, 2009 at 8:08 AM
Sue, After looking at the the water analysis, I belive that the Salt-Free Green WaveSystem will work well in your area. I would recommend the GWP-2000 for you.
Cindy
February 11, 2009 at 11:50 PM
Hi Mark, We have a well and lots of iron in our water. We are also a family of 5 and have 2.5 bathrooms. We would like to put in something that will be easy to install, low maintenance/no maintenance and will help with the iron problem. We have mainly been looking at the 'no-salt' products. But there are so many different products out there and so much information. Can you please advise us as to what will work best for our family? Thank you. Cindy
mark
February 12, 2009 at 4:29 PM
If you want my advise, you will stay away from most no-salt products on iron-bearing water. You will not be happy. That said, I always recommend our Oxi-Gen system to remove the iron. Link: https://www.uswatersystems.com/catalog/us-water-systems-oxigen-iron--sulfur-eradication-system.htm
Jeff
February 12, 2009 at 8:34 PM
We have an untreated well (1700 sq ft home, 2 bath, 6+ yrs old). We just had our water treated and the only concern is Hardness (275 mg/L). Everything else is in the excellent category, except for Sulfate which was satisfactory (38 mg/L). After doing a lot of reading, we are very interested in your salt-free solutions. Price is a big concern. Would Limeblaster work for us or would you recommend something else for us to check out?
mark
February 12, 2009 at 10:13 PM
Jeff, All I can give you is a definite "maybe" but it does have a 110% money back guarantee.
Wayne Skaggs
February 14, 2009 at 10:34 AM
Mark, what a great Blog. I have a scale problem, occasional rusty stains and chlorine smell. I am not familiar with what levels of contaminants I should be concerned about. I would appreciate your comments on my water CCR: Copper 0.126 ppm / Lead 0.5 ppb / Bicarbonate 176 ppm / Calcium 33.3 ppm / Chloride 40 ppm / Iron 0.737 ppm / Magnesium 8.5 ppm / Manganese 0.111 ppm / Sodium 54 ppm / sulfate 23 ppm / Total Alkalinity as CaCO3 144 ppm / TDS 296 kTotal Hardness as CaCO3 118 ppm / Zinc 0.021 ppm / Barium 0.077 ppm / Fluoride 0.27 ppm / Nitrate 0.14 ppm / Gross beta emitters 5.1 pCi/L / Chlorine Residual, Free 1.59 avg. 2.13 max ppm / Total Trihalomethanes 2.7 ppb / Bromoform 0.9 ppb / Bromodichloromethane 0.7 ppb / Dibromochloromethane 1.5 ppb / pH 6.9. I have been considering the GWT-2000. Are you familiar with SpringHouse and Urban Defender?
Cindy
February 14, 2009 at 2:02 PM
Mark, thank you so much for the information. I'll check it out.
Ehud
February 14, 2009 at 5:30 PM
Hi This E mail is from Israel I installed a souna Thermaol (USA made) and after some uses it malfunctioned. The technician who fixed it said that a switch inside was covered with calcium , cleaned it and recomended a salt water softener. I was told about the various no salt equipment but i wander, since the steam is pure water H2o the cristals or argonit or watever the calcium format which still remain in the water will acumulate in the tank and will cause the same problem any solution you would recomend will be appreciated. how about the TAC? will it be good? Or the British salamander? Thanks ek
Josh
February 17, 2009 at 1:02 PM
I have a easy water system in my house. I have had it for about 6 months. I have not noticed any more lime buildup on my shower heads or faucets. I have noticd that a film does get built up quickly on my tile in my shower but it wipes right off. I did soak one of my aerators in a glass of water for a few days and when I pulled it out all the old buildup was gone. I Have not really noticed anything with soap (less or more) in the shower or laundry. My plastic glasses in the dishwasher were getting a light dusty film left behind when done though. I used the recommended lemon shine the give as a free sample and that did change the out come of the dishes for the better. Why does that lemon shine smell like CLR? Is the lemon shine just doing the lime removal or is the system actually working?
mark
February 17, 2009 at 4:57 PM
Wayne Skaggs, Are you on city or well water?
Wayne
February 17, 2009 at 5:17 PM
My water source is from a small private company which supplies water to about 900 customers. Their source is a well.
mark
February 17, 2009 at 11:08 PM
Wayne, You have too much iron to use the GreenWave, or any salt-free system for that matter without first taking out the iron. The Urban Defender is a fraud, in my opinion and the Springhouse is an overpriced filtration system that we could build and sell tp you for $900. Neither one affects scale. PERIOD!
mark
February 17, 2009 at 11:22 PM
The lemon shine is designed to cut hard water deposits. It may be similar to CLR, but the manufacturer refuses to divulge what's in it. It's the Lemon Shine, not the Easy Water...
Wayne
February 18, 2009 at 9:35 AM
Thanks for confirming what I suspected. Do you recommend a US Water Systems H2O2 injection system followed by a salt water softener and charcoal filters?
David
February 18, 2009 at 10:15 AM
Mark, I am researching No-Salt systems and need your expertise on the Filtersorb SP. Is it the same technology as TAC?
Maddawg
February 19, 2009 at 4:10 PM
From an earlier post: "The Sanitizer is amazing on any iron water and you eliminate the chemical feed" I couldn't find it on your website, how does it work and how much does it cost. Is it an alternative to the "Oxi-Gen" system? Thanx
MIKE
February 22, 2009 at 5:44 PM
WHAT IS YOUR OPINION ON THE "NON-SACRIFICIAL ALLOY" NO-SALT SYSTEM THAT SAFEWATER SOFTENER LLC IS SELLING?. MIKE
mark
February 22, 2009 at 7:54 PM
Wayne wrote: <em>Thanks for confirming what I suspected. Do you recommend a US Water Systems H2O2 injection system followed by a salt water softener and charcoal filters?</em> <strong>Wayne, The H2O2 system would be followed by a water softener and I would probably recommend a Reverse Osmosis system instead of carbon filtration.</strong>
mark
February 22, 2009 at 7:57 PM
David wrote: <em>I am researching No-Salt systems and need your expertise on the Filtersorb SP. Is it the same technology as TAC?</em> <strong>David, No it is not the same technology. It is totally different. 1. It is not TAC, but rather appears to be an anion-type resin that lowers the pH to create an initial effect of preventing scale, but is short-lived, as anion resin needs recharged; and 2. It is not certified, tested and validated like the TAC media. We have tested it and at this juncture, I choose not to sell the technology. They would have to show me more that what they currently have in order to consider it a viable technology.</strong>
mark
February 22, 2009 at 8:11 PM
Mike wrote: <em>WHAT IS YOUR OPINION ON THE “NON-SACRIFICIAL ALLOY” NO-SALT SYSTEM THAT SAFEWATER SOFTENER LLC IS SELLING?.</em> Mike, <strong>I deal with products that have some basis in "fact." Anyone who has passed first-year Chemistry should know that a catalyst can only influence the rate of a reaction, not its final outcome. I could go on and on about their mis-statements, but it is sufficient to say that I do not consider this technology as anything to be taken seriously. There are lots of products on the "lunatic fringe" and most have no basis in fact, and I don't like to waste my time on something that walks like a duck, talks like a duck, looks like a duck, because it's probably a duck!</strong>
Shawn B
February 22, 2009 at 10:21 PM
Mark - I read many of the posts and replies, but not all, so forgive me if my questions have previously been answered. I am in the process of gutting my home and putting on an addition. When it is done, I will have 2.5 baths. My copper plumbing has all been replaced with Zurn Pex tubing. Over the years, my hard water has ruined many appliances and shower heads etc. I have "city water", but it is provided by various wells, so the water quality report is listed in ranges, rather than specific numbers. Below is the most recent water quality info: Chloride: 14.5 - 244 ppm Hardness: 160 -500 ppm Sulfate: 11.6 - 40.5 ppm Total Dissolved Solids: 94 - 620 ppm Zinc: <5 - 57.2 ppb Iron: <25 - 102 ppb Manganese: <2 - 104 ppb Sodium: 3.92 - 95.6 ppm My questions are: 1) Is there any problem using the GreenWave TAC with the Zurn Pex Tubing? 2) Any negative effects on my septic system? 3) Considering my water quality, will the TAC system work? (I'm not a fan of the slippery water feel of salt softeners). 4) Are there any installers of your system in Northern NJ, or can my regular plumber do it? Thanks in advance. Shawn Sparta, NJ
mark
February 23, 2009 at 8:36 AM
Shawn B, 1) No problem with PEX plumbing; 2) No effect on septic whatsoever (except that a softener would discharge more water) 3) Based upon your water variations, I think the TAC might possibly the ONLY way to treat your water; and 4) Very simple to install - any plumber should be able to do it. Just in and out!
Mathew
March 2, 2009 at 9:18 PM
Mark, What is the difference between the Greenwave Lime Buster and the HC38 from Hydrocare?
mark
March 3, 2009 at 8:46 AM
Matthew, The HC38 seems to have a very small area where the RF (Radio Frequency) wave touch the plumbing. It's pretty neat, but I think it would be very difficult for the RF to work properly as there is less than 1" where the RF touches the pipe, whereas the LimeBlaster has about 4" for the RF to penetrate the pipe. All of these devices are not as effective as TAC and the HC38 would seem to be less so because of the contact area of the RF.
Allen
March 7, 2009 at 6:10 PM
I'm researching this whole no-salt softening thing myself. When people say 'they work' or 'don't work' that doesn't mean anything to me. Since softeners do a variety of things, what I want to know is: 1. Will it prevent scaling of cold water piping 2. Will it prevent scaling of hot water piping 3. Will it prevent scaling of water heater and elements 4. Will it make me feel slippery 5. Will it prevent soap scum from forming in my shower 6. Will it prevent spotting on sliverware or glassware or dishes in my dishwasher? 7. Will it prevent spotting or buildup of deposits on my bathroom and kitchen fixtures 8. Will it reduce my soap usage significantly 9. Will it result in cleaner laundry 10. Will it reduce itchy skin and/or scalp 11. How much silica will it withstand (and still work properly) 12. What pH will it withstand 13. How much chlorine will it withstand 14. How much iron or manganese will it withstand Mark, Your blog here seems to be honest and straightforward. However, even here there isn't much elaboration as to the meaning of 'it works'. In my observation, every manufacturer that markets one of these devices (with wording everywhere from carefully constructed to outright lying) does their best to lead the consuming public to believing that these salt-free devices are capable of delivering all the benefits of a true ion-exchange water softener. Why not address specific performance attributes? I've got nothing against them. I just want some truth. Their marketing language and methods lead me to suspicion that they're lying or at best vastly stretching the truth - and that the true benefits are so miniscule that a reasonable person would reject them in favor of the tried-and-true technology that actually delivers on the promise - a true salt-based water softener. Allen
john Yutesler
March 8, 2009 at 8:35 PM
Have you heard any pros or cons on the whole house water filter by Whirlpool that is available at Lowes home centers? Thanks John Yutesler
Jerry D
March 12, 2009 at 2:45 PM
Results from NTL watercheck for my well: Metals ---------------------------------------------- Calcium 85.4 mg/L Copper 0.009 mg/L Iron 0.064 mg/L Magnesium 35.30 mg/L Manganese 0.005 mg/L Potassium 1.0 mg/L Silica 7.89 mg/L Sodium 8 mg/L Zinc 0.004 mg/L No others detected ---------------------------------------------- Physical Factors Alkalinity 60 mg/L Hardness 360 mg/L pH 6.7 pH Units TDS 210 mg/L Turbidity 0.6 NTU Chloride 9.0 mg/L Sulfate 31.0 mg/L No others detected ---------------------------------------------- Organic - Trihalomethanes None detected ---------------------------------------------- Organic - Volatiles None detected ---------------------------------------------- Mark, would the Greenwave TAC conditioner work for my case? Thanks
mark
March 13, 2009 at 10:22 AM
John Yutesler wrote: <em>Have you heard any pros or cons on the whole house water filter by Whirlpool that is available at Lowes home centers?</em> Thanks <strong>John, I am not impressed.</strong>
mark
March 13, 2009 at 10:29 AM
Allen asked (My answers in <strong>BOLD</strong>): I’m researching this whole no-salt softening thing myself. When people say ‘they work’ or ‘don’t work’ that doesn’t mean anything to me. Since softeners do a variety of things, what I want to know is: 1. Will it prevent scaling of cold water piping <strong>(Answer: The GreenWave TAC does, others to a lessor degree)</strong> 2. Will it prevent scaling of hot water piping <strong>(Answer: Same as #1)</strong> 3. Will it prevent scaling of water heater and elements <strong>(Answer: Same as #1)</strong> 4. Will it make me feel slippery <strong> (Answer: NO!)</strong> 5. Will it prevent soap scum from forming in my shower <strong>(Answer: NO!)</strong> 6. Will it prevent spotting on sliverware or glassware or dishes in my dishwasher? <strong>(Answer: To some degree - You may have to use Jet Dry)</strong> 7. Will it prevent spotting or buildup of deposits on my bathroom and kitchen fixtures <strong>(Answer: No, but it wipes off easily)</strong> 8. Will it reduce my soap usage significantly <strong>(Answer: Hardly)</strong> 9. Will it result in cleaner laundry <strong>(Answer: Slightly)</strong> 10. Will it reduce itchy skin and/or scalp <strong>(Answer: Don't Know - subjective)</strong> 11. How much silica will it withstand (and still work properly) - <strong>(Answer: not much)</strong> 12. What pH will it withstand (<strong>Answer: 6-9 pH)</strong> 13. How much chlorine will it withstand <strong>(Answer: Remove the chlorine first)</strong> 14. How much iron or manganese will it withstand <strong>(Answer: Almost none)</strong> Mark, Your blog here seems to be honest and straightforward. However, even here there isn’t much elaboration as to the meaning of ‘it works’. In my observation, every manufacturer that markets one of these devices (with wording everywhere from carefully constructed to outright lying) does their best to lead the consuming public to believing that these salt-free devices are capable of delivering all the benefits of a true ion-exchange water softener. Why not address specific performance attributes? I’ve got nothing against them. I just want some truth. Their marketing language and methods lead me to suspicion that they’re lying or at best vastly stretching the truth - and that the true benefits are so miniscule that a reasonable person would reject them in favor of the tried-and-true technology that actually delivers on the promise - a true salt-based water softener. <strong>Your last two paragraphs pretty much summarizes the "State-of-the-Salt-Free-Industry." To day the TAC is the only one with Certification (99.6% Effective</strong>)
mark
March 13, 2009 at 1:38 PM
Jerry, Your water should be fine with a GreenWave. The only issue is silica, which not even a softener will remove, so other than the silica, it should be just fine.
Jerry D
March 13, 2009 at 6:36 PM
Thanks Mark, that's what I was hoping to hear, I think. Is there any cost effective way to remove the silica? Is the amount, 7.89 mg/L, unusual and can it cause problems with the TAC? I had a new submersible pump installed about a year ago, could the silica content arise from the disturbance putting in the pump etc? Thanks again for your informative blog.
Brad
March 14, 2009 at 3:09 AM
Mark, I have simple restricted flow scale build up issues. City Water in Lousiville KY. I have one gas hot water heater serving two baths and the kitchen, then an electric hot water heater serving laundry and master bath. I am interested in limebuster. ALso looking at Hydrocare HC38. Do I need two of them? Gas HW is 12 fteet of copper tubing from the main incoming line, second electic water heater is 50 ft of coppper tubing away. The split for the second occurs at a "T" that drops into the first gas water heater. Something like this below. 12 ft 50 ft Main --------------T-------------------------Elec GAS Limebuster is less expensive and I noted your disdain for the HC-38 in previous posts. THanks Brad
John Y.
March 16, 2009 at 9:24 PM
What whole house water filter do you like? Would I need to filter the water for the sprinkler system and pond?
mark
March 17, 2009 at 8:45 AM
Jerry, I am attending a conference this week on water. I will get back with you on the silica issue after that. There are some new possibilites...
mark
March 17, 2009 at 8:46 AM
Brad asked: <em>Mark, I have simple restricted flow scale build up issues. City Water in Lousiville KY. I have one gas hot water heater serving two baths and the kitchen, then an electric hot water heater serving laundry and master bath. I am interested in limebuster. ALso looking at Hydrocare HC38. Do I need two of them? Gas HW is 12 fteet of copper tubing from the main incoming line, second electic water heater is 50 ft of coppper tubing away. The split for the second occurs at a “T” that drops into the first gas water heater. Something like this below. 12 ft 50 ft Main ————–T————————-Elec GAS Limebuster is less expensive and I noted your disdain for the HC-38 in previous posts.</em> Brad, In out testing, the Limeblaster has outperformed any other RF device we have found. Still, with any RF device, I would put one on the cold water inlet for both water heaters. The signal travels both directions, but it works best if you install two. There is a discount for 2 - you save $50.00. <strong>UPDATE: After further testing, the HC-38 is actually a pretty good unit - I like the Limeblaster better, but the HC-38 is not bad.</strong>
mark
March 17, 2009 at 9:00 AM
John Y., I need more info about what you would be filtering...
Tim
March 19, 2009 at 4:17 PM
Mark, I am looking at a salt New Generation Salt Free Well System form LaPure. Are they reputable? Is their iron/hydrogen sulfide/manganese non chemical oxidizing media workable? <strong>Tim, I am not familiar with them. Can you provide a link to the product of which you are referring?</strong>
Casey
March 20, 2009 at 1:00 PM
Hi Mark, I sent this email in to your website's help section and have not got a response. So I will post it here. I have been researching whole house water softener/conditioner and filtration systems and came across your blog. We purchased our house new 10 years ago and have had hard, calcium deposits, bad tasting water ever since. We purchase RO water from a local water store for drinking and have no water softening system. I would like to purchase the Green Wave TAC system, but I don’t know if it will work for my residence. I have obtained the consumer confidence report from Corona Department of Water and Power for 2007 (their latest report). That would be Corona, CA. Can you review it to see if the Green Wave system is compatible with the water in my area? The following link will direct you to the report – http://www.discovercorona.com/documents/DWP/water%20quality/FINAL,%20FINAL%20CONSUMER%20CONFIDENCE%20REPORT.pdf I have a 3200 square foot residence with three baths and two adults and two children. I believe I spoke with you over the phone a couple of weeks ago, I am not sure whom I spoke with, but he advised me that the GreenWave TAC Plus 3000 would work for my residence. This was based on the size of our residence not the water report. If it is a system that will work in my area, will it also remove the Calcium deposits (whitish crystal like substance) that I already have? Thank you, Casey <strong>Casey, I have been on vacation. Sorry for the delay. The GreenWave Plus 2000 or 3000 should work based upon the water analysis provided. Over time, it will probably remove the calcium deposits.</strong>
Paul
March 21, 2009 at 5:13 PM
I am doing some research on alternative water conditioning systems and it appears there are several options to the salt based softeners. I note the claims around certifications and it seems many of these alternatives have or will soon be getting DVGW-512 and 510 certified, so that will level the playing field. Now I note on the Next cert a reference to the test being done via recirculation pumps, is that how your home based solutions work using recirculation pumps, if not what is the cert telling us? I also stumbled across the Watt Cert online which appears pretty much a duplicat of the Next Cert, so is it the same since you are using the Watt medium apparently, or did Next actually to their own test? Thanks. <strong>Paul, Some of these companies have been proclaiming that they will soon be certified, and they have been saying that for several years. Talk is cheap - the certrificate with the percentage of scale reduction, is hard! There are two divisions of Watts. One uses nextScaleStop media and the other uses Filtersorb media. Watts Water uses the Filtersorb, which in my opinion, is not as reliable. We also use the nextScaleStop media as part of our TAC system. To my knowledge the recirc. test is the way it was done and the way that anyone can do it.</strong>
Tom K.
March 23, 2009 at 12:21 AM
Hi Mark, As with many of the posters to your blog, I appreciate your depth of knowledge as well as your willingness to frankly state the pros and cons of the various technologies out there. I live in West Texas out in the country and my home is on a water well and septic system. I had my well tested several years ago and it was deemed safe, but I do not know the specific levels. I have checked my wells with a simple TDS checker and both measure over 3000 ppm. I have a basic 5-stage RO system that I recently replaced the membrane with a GE Osmonics TFM-36 with appropriate restrictor (350ml) and I still am unable to reduce my TDS below 650ppm. I would like to install a system or systems necessary to accomplich two things: 1) reduce the TDS of my drinking water to a considerably lower number, and 2) reduce the extremely frustrating and damaging calcium deposits in my faucets, fixtures, water heater elements, etc. My water well pressure switch is set to 45-65psi as I know that the inlet pressure of an RO system can effect the function of the system. Is there a better membrane that might perform better with such a high TDS? For the whole-house system, I have not read any recommendations for salt vs. TAC based on well water with such a high TDS content. Should I even consider a TAC-based system, or is salt the only way to go? Thank you for your time! <strong>Tom, Without a detailed water analysis, I cannot make a guess as to how to properly treat your water, but I can say that you will need a commercial RO system that operates in excess of 200 psi with a booster pump. Here's a good way to get the water tested: https://www.uswatersystems.com/us-water-lab-water-test.html</strong>
Pamela
March 23, 2009 at 11:55 AM
Hello Mark, I would really appreciate your suggestions for a water softener or filtration unit. We have well water and a sea-side property. 3 bedroom/3bath house. There is a MacClean backwash system installed, but it has a mechanical problem and is not in use at this time. I am wondering if I should have it repaired or replace it with something that might be better for our needs. Water analysis result is: Hardness 5gpg Iron .3ppm Ph 7.0 Manganese .10ppm Sulphur n/a Nitrates n/a Total dissolved solids 88ppm We live on a water-side property (Puget Sound) and have a whitewater septic system. We get brown/gray type staining and the taste is a bit off with a scum type stuff that floats on my coffee and tea. Any suggestions will be very helpful. Thank-you, Pamela <strong>Pamela, What kind of pressure do you have? There are several ways to treat the water. You have a partial water analysis, but in order to do a good job of treating your water, I would recommend this: https://www.uswatersystems.com/us-water-lab-water-test.html</strong>
John Y.
March 23, 2009 at 8:56 PM
City water that is mostly surface water (Snow Melt). We live in Northern Colorado Front Range (Eastern Slope). My biggest concern is the chlorine.
John Y.
March 23, 2009 at 9:17 PM
The attached website is our city water department home page. Thanks John Y. http://www.ci.loveland.co.us/wp/water/main.htm
mark
March 27, 2009 at 2:46 PM
<strong>John Y., Do you have any info on hardness, calcium, magneisum, iron, manganese, etc.?</strong>
Jerry D
March 30, 2009 at 6:53 AM
Mark, Don't mean to be impatient, did you find out anything about silica? Thanks "I am attending a conference this week on water. I will get back with you on the silica issue after that. There are some new possibilites…"
John Y.
March 30, 2009 at 6:30 PM
Mark Here is what the city water lab gave me. Thanks City of Loveland Treated Drinking Water Analysis for the Month of February 2009 Analyzed By: MS PARAMETER VALUE MCL* MCLG** MDRL*** PARAMETER VALUE MCL* MCLG** MDRL*** Alkalinity 36 None mg/L Ammonia (N) ND MCLG = <10 mg/L Aluminum 0.012 MCLG<0.1 mg/L Nitrate (N) 0.5 MCL = 10.0 mg/L Color 0 MCLG = 0 color units pH 7.63 Optimum 7.8 s.u. Chlorine, Free 1.29 MDRL = 4.0 mg/L Potassium 0.6 MCLG = <20.0 mg/L Chloride 3.84 MCLG = <250 mg/L Silica 2.3 MCLG = <30 mg/L Chromium (Total) 0.009 MCL = 0.1 mg/L Sulfate 17.5 MCLG = <500 mg/L Copper ND MCL = 1.3 mg/L Turbidity 0.050 MCL = 0.3 NTU Fluoride 0.87 MCL = 4.0 mg/L Total Dissolved Solids 118 NONE mg/L Hardness (Total) 28 NONE although if over 250 mg/L water is considered hard Specific Conductance 131 NONE umhos/cm Iron (Total) ND MCLG = <0.3 mg/L Zinc ND MCLG = <5 mg/L Manganese 0.003 MCLG = <0.05 mg/L Lead ND MCL = 0.015 mg/L Comments: *MCL = Maximum Contaminant Level (mandated by the USEPA) **MCLG = Maximum Contaminant Level Goal ***MDRL = Maximum Disinfectant Residual Level mg/L = Milligrams/Liter NTU = Nephelometric Turbidity Units NT = Not Tested ND = None Detected
Jeff
March 30, 2009 at 11:12 PM
Mark, Great site, I have enjoyed reading through it. I was poking around on other sites and saw a no salt product with the name of Clearwave being sold by Home Depot (among others). I did not see any mention of it on this site and wonder if you have anything to say about it. Thanks, Jeff
mark
March 31, 2009 at 7:32 AM
John, I would use a backwashing carbon filter and a 4.5" x 20" 20 micron filter system. Links: https://www.uswatersystems.com/fusion-backwashing-granular-activated-carbon-superfilter.html https://www.uswatersystems.com/aquapurion-big-blue-4-5-x-20-commercial-filter-housing.html
rickla_wyo
April 2, 2009 at 8:15 PM
hi mark, thanks for the great info. we are just completing a new home in NW wyoming where the water is generally pretty darn hard. we had a test done on our well in June 2008 and the results are included below. We need to flow between 15-20gpm as its a large house with 5 bathrooms. Our pressure is 45-65psi regulated by (2) large 30 gallon equivalent draw down tanks. we got lucky in that our water has low TDS and has no odor/taste/color, etc. however, we have a LAARS Mascot boiler for domestic hot water and radiant heading in our current house on the ranch, and the new house will actualy have 2 (a LAARS and a RINNAI). the current boiler in our existing house on the ranch is showing signs of hard water scaling and we need to sort out a solution before we start pumping the water into the new system with 2 of those boilers. I definitely want to stay away from salt systems as we're on septic and we flow a LOT of water... any ideas greatly appreciated. -Rick pH 8.2 Specific Conductance, 835 at 25°C, µmhos Alkalinity, "P" 0 as CaCO3, ppm Alkalinity, "M" 170 as CaCO3, ppm Sulfur, Total, 206 as SO4, ppm Chloride, 21 as Cl, ppm Hardness, Total, 142 as CaCO3, ppm Calcium Hardness, Total 59 as CaCO3, ppm Magnesium Hardness, Total 82 as CaCO3, ppm Barium, Total, < 0.01 as Ba, ppm Strontium, Total, 0.62 as Sr, ppm Copper, Total, < 0.05 as Cu, ppm Iron, Total, < 0.05 as Fe, ppm Sodium, 121 as Na, ppm Potassium, 1.4 as K, ppm Zinc, Total, 0.04 as Zn, ppm Aluminum, Total, < 0.1 as Al, ppm Manganese, Total, < 0.01 as Mn, ppm Molybdenum, < 0.06 as Mo, ppm Nitrate, 4.0 as NO3, ppm Phosphate, Total, < 0.4 as PO4, ppm Phosphate, Total Inorganic, < 0.2 as PO4, ppm Phosphate, Ortho-, < 0.2 as PO4, ppm Silica, Total, 6.7 as SiO2, ppm Fluoride, 1.9 as F, ppm Arsenic, Total, < 0.1 as As, ppm Beryllium, < 0.01 as Be, ppm Boron, 0.29 as B, ppm Cadmium, < 0.01 as Cd, ppm Chromium, Total, < 0.02 as Cr, ppm Cobalt, Total, < 0.01 as Co, ppm Lead, Total, < 0.05 as Pb, ppm Nickel, Total, < 0.01 as Ni, ppm Selenium, Total, < 0.1 as Se, ppm Tin, Total, < 0.05 as Sn, ppm Titanium, Total, < 0.01 as Ti, ppm Vanadium, Total, < 0.01 as V, ppm Thallium, Total, < 0.1 as Tl, ppm Carbon, Total Organic, 1.6 as C, ppm Turbidity, 0.4 NTU
mark
April 4, 2009 at 11:11 AM
The Green Wave should work well here, John.
mark
April 4, 2009 at 11:13 AM
Jerry, Silica is a whole another animal. A regular water softener won't remove it either, just don't confuse "plating" from silica with "hardness scale." There's really no better way to deal with it.
wholesale distributors
April 20, 2009 at 9:55 PM
<strong>wholesale distributors...</strong> I truly appreciate you taking the time to share this . Look forward to more posts from you. Cheers :)...
Mario
July 15, 2009 at 1:30 PM
Mark, I am looking for a no salt softener to use before our ro systems, my question is, if the water gets catalysed with the green wave is it safe for the ro membrans or is beter to remove the minerals from the water to eliminate incrustation in the membrans? The Water Doctor Replied: Mario, <em><strong>You say "RO systems" - are these residential or commercial that may recycle the water?</strong></em>
Michael Pierce
July 15, 2009 at 11:12 PM
I am very impressed with what I've been reading (comments from concerned people). I was directed to this website by one of my customers. I am a REAL Water Treatment Specialist in WA & OR. I've been selling NextScaleStop Systems for years. Yes, they are a great salt-free solution to scale problems for customer's homes. The #1 complaint I get from my customer base is that the scale is ruining everything that it touches. I am happy to announce that I have a solution for any customer that comes into contact with me. Thank you again for being honest w/ your blog. I will return monthly to read more great conversations that you've had w/ people. The Water Doctor Replied: <em><strong>Thanks, Michael. Your input is welcome!</strong></em> Michael Pierce Water Treatment Specialist Aarrow Plumbing & Water Treatment in WA & OR "we can help you with all of your water needs"
James Burns
July 26, 2009 at 7:28 AM
Dear Water Dr. I am about to start a home remodel and want to deal with our hard water (scaling) problem. Hopefully without salt. We had a water test done when we moved into the house. The results were: - Radon 1316 pCi/L - Ammonia <0.1 mg/L - Color ND - Turbidity 0.23 nu - Odor ND - Hardness 134 mg/L - Iron <0.05 ppm - Manganese <0.05 ppm - Sodium 11.5 ppm - Lead (flush) 1.08 ppm - Chlorine 13.1 ppm - Nitrate 0.31 ppm - Nitrite <0.05 ppm - Sulfate 17.7 ppm - pH 7.79 S.U. Not sure if this is complete enough to be helpful, but is there a recommended system that "works" for this. The only issue I care about is the scale buildup. Thanks, James <strong>The Water Doctor Replied:</strong> <em><strong>James, Based upon the above analysis, the Green Wave TAC Ultra system should do a great job of removing chemicals and preventing scale.</strong></em>
Terry
July 28, 2009 at 9:20 AM
I am in the water treatment business in Northern Alabama and I heard about a product called Hydrocare that uses no salt, chemicals or magnets to treat hard water and not only prevent lime scale build up but also remove it the plumbing and appliances. The patented technology was developed in the UK for British Gas in the 1990's and has been tested and sold worldwide for over 10 years but has only been available in the US for less than 2 years. I was skeptable too, but after seeing the test results from independent testing companies and talking to actual users of the product, I decided to try one in my home as a test. Here are me test results after only 2 weeks so far: My Home Hydrocare Test Results Background: 1. Hydrocare HC-44 unit installed on July 15, 2009 on cold water line to water heater. This is the manufacture’s recommended installation location as it will provide the strongest signal directly into the water heater. According to Hydrocare, their technology works both up and down stream and is not dependant upon any water flow and thusly it will provide whole house hard water treatment from the water heater installation. Total installation time took less than 5 minutes. 2. Our Home is 4 ½ years old with no previous water treatment and is 2700 sq feet with full 3 bathrooms. 3. Our city Water has a TDS of 168 ppm and 12 grains of hardness per gallon. 4. We have had experience in a previous home with salt brine water softeners and both my wife and I did not like the slimy never feeling clean feel on our skin of the treated water. Some people think the slimy feel is a clean feel but most of the people I know with salt water softeners give this as their biggest complaint. One friend of mine says “it’s like you can not rinse off the soap”. Weekly Results and Observations: End of week one: • Noticed immediate personal hygiene product changes that included less shampoo on hair and both my wife and I believe our hair and skin to be softer feeling. The hand soap lathers more without the slimy feel like our previous water softener. I have stopped using my hair conditioner as well. • We have a black mate finish granite sink in the kitchen that no longer has white water spots and film. The white film that previously built up in the sink and around the base of the plumbing fixtures has not reappeared after initial cleaning. In the past we had to clean with Kaboom product weekly. (I will miss Billy Mays he got us started on Kaboom years ago.) • Stopped using Jet dry in dishwasher and found no water spots on glassware or dishes. • Our master bath has antique bronze finish on plumbing fixtures and the shower glass frame. Prior to test we cleaned the shower with Kaboom to remove any old lime scale build up, something we had to do on a weekly basis prior to test. Noticed very few hard water spots on shower glass and none on the dark frame. There is no need to clean with Kaboom at this time. • The toilet in the less used basement bathroom had a hard water ring in it prior to test and noticed that it has disappeared after 6 days of Hydrocare installation. Week Two: • Pretty much the same observations as in week one with some exceptions as noted. • Did notice some evaporative spotting in the shower glass in the master bath. Having talked with other Hydrocare users, this is to be expected for the first month or so, as the Hydrocare unit is removing the old built up lime scale which passes through the shower in solution with the water. The big difference VS the untreated water before, is that the evaporative spots DO NOT stick to the glass but can be removed with a damp cloth with out the use of Kaboom or other harsher cleaning chemicals. The spots are more of a powdery residue instead of a hard scaly build up. • The built up lime scale on our shower head has reduced by about 50% in the 2 weeks. • On Saturday, I washed my wife’s car which is dark charcoal grey color and I noticed hardly any water spots on the car. Before Hydrocare I would wash the car in the driveway and then pull into the garage to dry to avoid eater spots. The few water spots this time were like the spots in the shower and came off with a damp towel. <strong>The Water Doctor Replied:</strong> <em>Terry, It sounds like you are really convinced about what you say, but I have to remain skeptical because I have tested this product and have not seen these same results. I have heard this from other people about this and other products, only to take water samples from the treated and untreated water and scientifically proved the soap lathered the same as the untreated water. I am sure you believe what you are saying, but I am betting if you sent me a gallon of treated and untreated water, I could not detect any difference in soap usage. For people who don't like the slick feeling, they almost always immediately say whatever product they are using is amazing. I believe that I can scientifically prove each of your claims about soap usage and spotting to be untrue. I am not questioning your veracity (I know you believe it), but conducting a test says it all. Let me ask - do you sell this product, know someone who sells this product or are you affilaited with the company. I have to ask. I would love to explore it further. How much did you pay for your system? I don't know it all, but I have been investigating these systems for 37 years, and while I feel they have some validity, the soap savings and spotting issues are what I question... However, I am willing to keep an open mind and would love to test the water.</em>
Chrisse
July 30, 2009 at 9:30 AM
Hi Tim, I need an eco-friendly water treatment system for my entire house. Im not interested in anything with salt or reverse osmosis. I have problems with scale build up and a reddish color that builds up not only in my shower but my toilets as well. My most recent water test results in mg/L Calcium 42.2 Copper .024 Iron .021 Magnesium 21.70 Potassium 5.0 Silica 14.7 Sodium 91 Alkalinity 140 Hardness 190 PH 7.3 TDS 450 Turbidity 0.3 Chloride 140 Nitrate as N 0.7 Sulfate 65 I have a 2200 sq/ft house with two bathrooms. I live in Phoenix, Arizona so my garage where the system would go can get up to 110-115F during the summer. Would that be a problem? And do I need to install a soft water loop? I currently do not have one. I appreciate any recommendations that you might have as to which system would work best for me if any. Thanks so much for your time!!!!!!!
Chrisse
July 30, 2009 at 9:35 AM
Oops ! I'm sorry I meant to say Hi ! Mark
mark
July 31, 2009 at 9:22 PM
Chrisse, I would recommend the GreenWave Pulsar and a Dual Pre-Filter system with a 5 micron spun poly filter and Maz cartridge. Here are the links: https://www.uswatersystems.com/green-wave-pulsar.html https://www.uswatersystems.com/us-water-big-blue-4-5-x-20-dual-filtration-system.html https://www.uswatersystems.com/hydronix-sediment-depth-filter-5-micron-4-5-x-20.html https://www.uswatersystems.com/pentek-4-5-x-20-radial-flow-iron-reduction-cartridge-rffe20-bb.html If you have further questions, please do not hesitate to call me at 800-608-USWATER.
Matt
August 4, 2009 at 8:57 PM
Water Doctor, I just moved into a house in which there is VERY hard water. A plumber came to the house and talked to me about the Watts One Flow (OF844-12) system and said it would help with the hard water. The house is brand new so I would like to do something before my Hot Water Heater and everything begin getting caked with the hard water minerals. THe chlorine level of my water is .1 to 2.0 mg/L, Floride is .67 to 1.8 mg/L, Nitrates is .2 to 1.98 mg/L, Lead is 5 to 6.37 mg/L, and Copper is .67 to .886 mg/L. I was looking into the US Water Systems GREENWAVE as well as the OneFlow by Watts. Which would you recommend. I was quoted around $1700 for the OneFlow for the parts and installation and I have yet to get quotes for the GreenWave systems. Any recommendations? <strong>The Water Doctor Replied:</strong> Watts One Flow is a commercial system. It is my understanding that there is no warranty on it for residential applications. With your level of chlorine I would recommend the GreenWave Pulsar. Here's the link: https://www.uswatersystems.com/green-wave-pulsar.html
JEN
August 19, 2009 at 2:15 AM
I have a house that has hard water and the elements keep burning out of the water heater, that I purchased about five years ago. The plumber mentioned that a water softener would help. Are there any saltless softners that would help with the calcium buildup on the water heater? <strong>The Water Doctor replied: Jen, <em>Again, I always say this - there is no such thing as a saltless water softener. There are saltless water treatment systems, but NONE SOFTEN THE WATER! They can however, do a good job at preventing scale (depending upon the brand).</em></strong>
Joanne
August 31, 2009 at 9:54 AM
I use well water. I was going to use an EWS system followed by a water softener. What is the harm in drinking water that has gone though a salt softening process. I do not want to put in an RO system. Thank you <strong>The Water Doctor Replied:</strong> Joanne, Have you had your water tested? What type of EWS system were you planning on using? Is it a carbon filter? What are you trying to accomplish? These are all things I would need to know before I can comment. Insofar as drinking water that has been softened, I think it tastes funky, but that's just me. How much sodium you put into your water depends upon what the hardness content is in your raw water. Again, what is your hardness? Do you have iron? Manganese? Sulfur? E-Coli? It sounds like you are ready to spend some money - make sure you spend it wisely and get a detailed water analysis before you do anything. Here's a link: https://www.uswatersystems.com/us-water-lab-water-test.html If you plan to spend hundreds or thousands on a water treatment system, you really need an X-Ray of your water - the water analysis does that. By the way, there are many EWS systems I WOULD NOT recommend for soft water.
Sandra Brooks
November 4, 2009 at 11:12 AM
LaPure is assuring me that my well water can be purified by their no-salt New Generation system. My well water has 130 grams per gallon of calcium; a ph of 7 and total dissolved solids of 2,000 pp million. Is it reasonable for me to purchase this system for $2495, plus $200 for equipment that will give the "slick" feeling to the water. I am a widow with no one to ask about this. Thank you, Sandra Brooks
Rich
November 7, 2009 at 12:55 PM
I just moved to a community with very hard water. The home I moved into does not have a water softener. I noticed that my dishes are not clean after cycling through my dishwasher. I also noticed that my silverware is turning black. I want a water softener that works! I've read about the saltless softeners but I've read that they don't really work. I have border line high blood pressure so salt-based softeners scare me. What do you recommend?
mark
November 11, 2009 at 8:00 PM
Sandra, I see all kind of "RED FLAGS" about this. NO, they will not purify your water for that amount of money. I will be glad to help you (not sell you). Call me at 800-608-8792. Ask for Mark...
mark
November 11, 2009 at 8:01 PM
Rich, I don't have enough information, but even if you have soft water you don't have to drink it! Tell me more about your water.
mark
November 15, 2009 at 9:55 AM
Nela, The Green Wave uses media which was certified when it was first made. Subsequent to that the media has been upgraded and improved, but has not been re-certified. I have had customers send me Pelican's "alleged certification" as well and it has about 1/20 of the documentation of our original media. I smell a rat ,or to put it a different way: I have not seen anything that leads me to belive that statement. I NEED TO SEE PROOF!
Tyler
December 6, 2009 at 9:52 PM
I live in a neighborhood with very hard water. The dishes in the dish washer are left with spots and are not fully clean, and our cars horribly water spotted from our sprinklers. Does anyone have advise for me? I need a water softener system but don't know what would work best for my situation. Do they have any that work for sprinklers. Any advise would help thanks Tyler
Kory Marks
December 7, 2009 at 4:09 PM
Water Doctor, Which salt-free water system do you recommend for someone who wants an earth friendly and environmentally safe system? Thanks in advance for your suggestions. Could you post a link to the product for us as well? Kory
mark
December 8, 2009 at 7:14 AM
Tyler, Two different issues here - the dishwasher problem can be easily fixed with a standard water softener, however, the salt added to the water would not be great for your grass. You could use potassium chlorine instead, but that is very expensive. The salt-free systems will not remove anything from the water, so while your spots on your cars may wipe off easilly, they would still be there. In my mind, a water softener with potassium chloride is the best way.
mark
December 8, 2009 at 7:16 AM
Kory, Here's what I recommend and sell: https://www.uswatersystems.com/systems/salt-free-water-conditioners There are four models to choose from
Jennifer
December 15, 2009 at 2:49 PM
I was going to buy Easy Water, but after reading all of this I am not confused. What is the best system to use? I have well water that is extremely hard. I need it softened. The last salt water conditioner I had used so much salt it ran my well dry just processing it. I am under construction and need a system right away before I begin installing dishwasher, washing machine, etc. The hard water eats the finish right off of metal and I don't want it destroying my new appliances
Jennifer
December 15, 2009 at 2:54 PM
PS I have sulfer and iron in the water also
mark
December 20, 2009 at 10:16 PM
Jennifer, You need to get a complete water analysis. The Easy Water won't work on well water with iron and sulfur according to the company. Before you do anything, get this test: https://www.uswatersystems.com/us-water-lab-water-test.html
Bob
January 2, 2010 at 4:56 PM
We have water supplied to us from the city from a well source close by. This water is very heavy in calcium (we think) We get light green build up of minerals everywhere and quickly. This is a problem everywhere in the neighborhood. What method do you think is best to prevent build up of deposits in appliances? We have a RO system for drinking water but I want to protect my pipes, water heater, and appliances. These "salt free" systems sound perfect. If they work...
mark
January 2, 2010 at 10:37 PM
Bob, The "green" could be an issue. Before you do anything, I would advise that you get a detailed water analysis. Here's a good one: https://www.uswatersystems.com/us-water-lab-water-test.html
Eugen
January 20, 2010 at 12:24 PM
Hello, Can someone point me to a link for the DVGW Standard W 512? I searched on their web site and couldn't find it. Thank you, Eugen
mark
January 22, 2010 at 7:09 AM
Eugen, You won't find it - I will address it very soon on a new blog post - watch for it.
Ron Turner
January 29, 2010 at 7:11 PM
I have been in the water filter business for over 30 years, and my experience with electronic and magnet (salt free) system will not reduce the hardness from your water. I buy my equipment from every major water supplier in the usa and not one dealer sells these salt free systems, simply because they do not work, for what you would spend for a salt free system you could get a good water softener that will last 10 to 15 plus years if maintained correctly. I had a customer on a well, he called a electronic scale removal compoany and ask about their systems, I talked him out of buying an electronic systems and sold him a water soft. He major problem was, when he heated the water it would make small calicum rocks, about two weeks later he called and said his water softener was not working, it took about a week before I could get back to check his water softener for a problem. During that time he purchased an electronic system from the company he first talked to. I checked the water hardness with the softener and the electronic systems that had been installed- the results were the same hardness I had checked before both systems were installed, both systems were not removing the hardness. I checked the water softener and found a small venturi was blocked, which caused the softener not to work. after I fixed the softener the water hardness was removed. I bypassed the water softener after the repair just to see how the electronic water system was working and the hardness came back to the same hardness it was before either system was installed, indicating the electroic system did not remove any amount of hardness. another problem occurs with hardness in the majority of cases is the problem of iron. hardness and iron are found together. electronic systems would not remove the iron problem and in some case might cause the water to turn brown or red . Ron Turner 1 800 705 9383
Ibrahim
February 2, 2010 at 3:18 AM
Hey Mark, Im going to start to work with a company called Hanish Water. They also claim to have the greenest system in the world. Can you please confirm their statements or products. Im planning to start a large business project with them and its quite urgent. Thanks.
mark
February 2, 2010 at 8:54 AM
Ibrahim, I am aware of Hanish Water. It seems to me that they don't want anyone to really know much about their product and/or methodology. That concerns me. I do know that they were in some type of arrangement with nextScaleStop, but evidently aren't any longer. I can make no recommendations except to say that this industry needs regulation.
Darrell
February 11, 2010 at 2:12 AM
It always nice to talk about new products,however to date there's no WQA rating that im aware of on the salt free/ descale systems.In industrial settings where flow rates can be controlled and the proper rest times given they do show some promise, however most homes very on both flow rates and pressure making these systems almost useless.....Not to mention the fact the water can't contain iron, sulfur,or mangenese these must be filtered out first before the descale media can even be used,by this time you might as well go to wal-mart and buy that $300.00 softener and add it to your system all it has to do is soften the water...it won't get any more efficient than that.The WQA has asked time and time again to test these so called salt-free water conditioners to test them against their claims.to date not one company has come forward and said Here test our system.If you go to IWQA or OWQA you will find that neither will stand behind any of these types of systems.I have seen shower doors, glasses from the dishwasher, and chrome faucets all spotted up after these kinds of systems and i was'nt impressed at all.but hey their salt free that what counts right??They have a long way to go!!!!!!!!!!
mark
February 11, 2010 at 8:44 PM
Darrell, For every person who like the "slick" feeling of soft water, there are 5 who hate it. I like it, but many people don't. I have seen the shower doors, dishes, etc. that were spotted, but I have also seen first-hand what these systems can do when properly applied. They don't make soft water, but they can preent scale and do it rather well. Just as you don't apply a water softener to fix water that has sulfur or bacteria, you hae to apply salt free systems properly as well.
Gavin
February 23, 2010 at 11:30 AM
I have been making and selling electronic descalers for 10 years andwe have a 99% success rate with customers. These units will NOT soften water as they do not remove the Calcium ions but they do have a physical effect which leaves the calcium in the water in a crystallised state and makes the water seem soft. Be absoloutly sure to get MONEY BACK GUARANTEE if you buy one of these units
mark
February 24, 2010 at 9:44 PM
Gavin, 99%? Pretty Amazing! Hard to believe. Actually, based upon 38 years of experience, I don't believe it. It's sort of like the salesmen who comes to me seeking a job and tells me he has a 99% closing rate. When I hear that, I run...
JRobin
March 16, 2010 at 11:00 AM
I have a US Water Green Wave, it is the previous TAC version. When the media needs to be replaced can the TAC media be replaced with the new MEP media in my old system? Thanks <strong>The Water Doctor Says: Yes, absolutely!</strong>
Michael
March 27, 2010 at 8:07 PM
To whom it may concern. What's the deal with saltless water conditioners? I have no background in water treatment. My research is based entirely on Information from the Internet and through e-mail exchange with relevant Companies. My research has led me to the following thoughts,conclusions and Observations: Some time back we purchased a saltless water conditioner from a company Called "Water is Life Iberica S.L." In Spain.They claim to sell a saltless water Conditioner produced by ROWA, which is supposed to be certified by DVGW. (the Water is Life brochure says so). Water is Life was not able to show The alleged certificate or respective test result and DVGW wrote me, that They do not know ROWA and have not issued a certificate to them. Note: DVGW Has a site where anyone can look up the products they have certified: http://mycert.dvgw-cert.com/verzeichnisse/index/7/de/produkte-wasser.html There are DVGW certificates for resin(S) used in saltless water conditioners The tests are, however, only conducted for a 21 day period, not making any Statement about how the resin works or for how long. Note: most saltless Water conditioner sellers claim their resin will work for 5 and more years. DVGW wrote me a statement, saying that they do not evaluate (not to date at Least) saltless water conditioner. The manufacturer of a DVGW certified resin PS3 (Watchwater.de) replied to Questions about how long their resin will last in saltless water Conditioners and how the resin is supposed to work (nanocrystals?) with: "we Only manufacture SP3"...... Critics claim, that the resins in question do work initially due to ion Exchange (the principle used in conventional salt systems), But quickly loose their effectiveness. They say, that the nano crystal Theory is pseudo science. I have yet not found any nanocrystal proof from independent and qualified Scientists. I have also not found any long term (beyond 21 days) independent scientific Based tests evaluating these systems . My common sense tells me, that if these systems would work as claimed, the Manufacturers would have all these tests in place, Especially considering how long these products are already on the market and Considering the high demand for such a product. If this nanocrystal theory holds water, then that would be a truly Revolutionary invention: Who invented it and wouldn't there be a Patent? It seems all well known and reputable companies in that field are not Selling these Devices. One would think, that a genius who can come up with such product would also Be able to provide a measuring device being able to distinguish between calcium in Solution versus calcium locked up in "nanocrystals". I am sure I missed a lot of data - maybe some which would explain some of The questions I've listed. One of my mottos is: "what if I am wrong?" Any body with relevant data and Insight is welcome to comment. Honest and polite information is appreciated. Use the same subject line, or the reply will possibly get automatically deleted. If you do reply, please let me know if I am allowed to use your statement in public papers. With regards, Michael Zimmermann. zmrman@hotmail.com <strong>The Water Doctor Replied: Micheal, You are correct in many of your observations, however reputable companies like Watts are selling these products. As simple as it sounds, no one has came up with good evaluation methods for testing the products. We have seen them work wonderfully for more than 5 years without service and then we have seen then not work for 5 weeks - on the same water. None of them can agree on standards and testing protocal and then there are the charlatons... It will be years before any good comes from this. In the meantime, many do work well. I wish I could say "all" but that's simply not true.</strong>
Harry
March 31, 2010 at 4:25 PM
We have a well that has hard water. The water destroys laundry, water heater tanks, and dishwashers. To compromise, we installed a salt based water softener ONLY ON THE HOT WATER PIPES. This way, we drink salt free water and have a salt free lawn. Only the hot water is softened. The water heater, wash machine, and dish washer are now more efficient at heating and cleaning without spots and without using huge quantities of soap. Our skin is better for it and showers feel great. For a family of four, we go through a bag of salt in 30 to 60 days, depending on who's home and doing what. The water softener is what makes life bearable in our house. Personally, I wouldn't trust a salt free descaler to treat our water as I don't beleive it would save us any money. I know for a fact that the water softener is saving us money because I haven't had to replace the dishwasher since installing it, and I'm using a fraction of the soap I used to. I have yet to hear anyone bragging about the soap saved since using an electronic water descaler.
mark
April 1, 2010 at 6:28 AM
Harry, You are 100% correct!
Michael
April 1, 2010 at 9:58 AM
...adding to my previous post: I just realized, that while the seller of our anti-scale device always referred to the media as being resin based, their brochure talks about ceramic media (where they trying to make the link to a catalytic automobile converter?). As to the nanocrystal proof: since the crystals are supposedly around 30 or under µm, the hardness of a sample of treated water pressed through a 20µm filter should be significantly lower than that of a sample of untreated water... If there is a fault with my theory, then please enlighten me! Regards, Michael. <strong>The Water Doctor replied: The crystals are under 30 µm - way under, like a million times under. They are ions. We are speaking of the ionic range which is in the .001 µm range. The fault with your theory is that you assume that the particles are way bigger than they actually are.</strong>
Jim
April 2, 2010 at 5:46 PM
Are you familiar with the Scaltrol units and if they are effective? See scaltrolinc.com. They claim: "Scaltrol stops mineral scale by introducing a measured amount of sequestrant [polyphosphates] into the water. The mineral molecules, which have a positive charge, are attracted to and held in suspension by the negative charge of the sequestrant. The mineral molecules are unable to join together, so scale is unable to form." <strong>The Water Doctor Replied: Jim, Polyphosphates are one way of treating water. Read their MSDS Sheet and ask yourself if you really want this in your water. Also, I have seen them “gum-up” the pipes something horrible. I am not familiar with this brand, but in my 38 years of water treatment experience, I have never had good results with polyphosphates except in hog-watering operations. One of the problems with using a cartridge of polyphosphate is that it is a very inaccurate way of introducing the material into the water. When it sets all night, the first water coming through is saturated with it, but under high flows there is practically none present. Additionally, hot water tends to break it down. If you are bent on polyphosphate, a better way to introduce it into the water is with a proportional injection system and a Chemical Feed Pump, like this: https://www.uswatersystems.com/proportional-polyphosphate-injection-system.html </strong>
Michael
April 11, 2010 at 3:51 PM
"The crystals are under 30 µm – way under, like a million times under. They are ions. We are speaking of the ionic range which is in the .001 µm range. The fault with your theory is that you assume that the particles are way bigger than they actually are." Assuming? - I was actually quoting the manufacturer of our device: Se link, page 2. http://www.rowa-wasser.de/files/FCKeditor/File/trinkwasser/produkte/antikalk/ROWAAntikalkfibel-GB.pdf Regards, Michael
Naoma
April 18, 2010 at 2:57 PM
My salt softener has a bad timer, but is over 20 years old. I have a 190 ft deep well, 9 -10 hardness water and has recently been clorinated for mild Coliform (1 colony/100ml). After searching the net and reading about salt free aplliances I became interested since I cannot carry the salt bags and I like the idea of descaling the pipes of my 55 year home. I read that HyraCare guarantees a one year money back policy and wondered if it is worth while to try something like this or to just buy a new salt softener and give it time for the saltfree technology to improve. Do you have any suggestions? Do you know of any saltfree product that is approved? Thank you for any advice you may be able to give me. Naoma <strong>The Water Doctor Replied: There are no salt-free water softeners. I would recommend that you get a detailed water analysis first. Feel free to call me at 800-608-USWA.</strong>
Lacy
April 19, 2010 at 12:45 PM
Just had a Watts water softener installed- love the soft water!! Having a problem with sand- have a rural water well and the watts filter just before the softener kept clogging- added a spin down sand separator filter before the watts filter and now I'm having to flush the separator out up to twice a day. Need help!! Any suggestions for a sand problem?? <strong>The Water Doctor Replied: A Micro-Z filter or a Big Bubba might be the answer. Feel free to call me at 800-608-USWA for info.</strong>
Nina
April 22, 2010 at 9:49 PM
Hi, I recently moved to San Antonio, Texas. I noticed that the water here is very hard. I have so many spots and streaking on the dishes, shower doors, and sinks. I had a salesman that worked for GE come and do water testing. Have you heard of Aquafuzion? I want to know more about it before I purchase it because it is very costly about $8,000. I have had a water softner system before and I really dislike the sticky feeling it leaves on my skin. So I wanted to look into something that was salt-less. But are their any con's of having a water conditioner system versus a water softner system. Thank you for your feedback. <strong>The Water Doctor Replied: The AquaFuzion is a water softener (albeit a very overpriced one). You should be able to buy something for 1/8th to 1/4th that amount. They are using a play on words. Free free to call me at 800-608-USWA if you want more info. </strong>
Ed
April 30, 2010 at 1:15 PM
Hello, We just had a pushy woman ask us last night if we had our water tested. We said No, and she said its realy cool.. takes 5 minutes. 5 minutes later she came back and pushed through with a guy and his tools, and she then left. 2 hours later we got the $8000 price tag and financing for only 200 a month. Needless to say we did not buy it, and I found it quite pushy and certainly not a company I would trust after how it started. I know we have hard water, and of course the test showed we have very hard water and my has expressed intrest in a water filter. I did not believe the price they were showing me. I keep thinking its called oasis, but I am not sure. Looked a lot like the FILTRAMAX systems I found online.
mark
May 9, 2010 at 10:42 PM
<strong>The Water Doctor replied: It happens every day – I am for people making a fair profit, but that is insane.</strong>
Ed
April 30, 2010 at 4:31 PM
I found the company with the hard sell... added the URL to the message.. it seems they are Pentair filters.
joanna
May 4, 2010 at 6:36 PM
Hi. We just purchased a house in N.J. with a private well and a septic system. The seller provided water testing results (required by law). Everything was within the norms. Water was not tested for hardness but we know it is very hard. We have white film on the dishes, buildup on shower heads and rings around the toilets, dark laundry looks gray and stiff etc... A friend recommended Kenmore 370 water softner, the price is great. Have you had any feedback about this model. Thank you
mark
May 9, 2010 at 10:41 PM
<strong>The Water Doctor Replied: Joanna, In our industry we call Kenmore “throw-away” water softeners, because after 3 or 4 years it costs more to fix it than a new one, so you “throw it away” and get a new one. You will have much better quality with a professional grade softener like this: https://www.uswatersystems.com/matrixx-water-softener-with-smartphone-programming.html </strong>
Paul
May 5, 2010 at 10:46 PM
I noted one writer here indicated he had just instlled his softner to feed the water heater. If I were to do this it would involve far less pipe and plumbing work. I don't really care if my water is soft I just want to b able to run watter without having faucet aireators and washing machine input screens plug up with calcium particals every few weeks to say nothing of what the inside of my water heater looks like. Will I be improving my situation much by a softner down strewn of my water heater?
dan
May 6, 2010 at 12:57 AM
I am on city supplied water but a septic for sewage. My concern is the effect of the salt on the septic system and leach field. Is my concern warranted and do you have a recommendation for a specific brand or system type. Thanx, dan
mark
May 9, 2010 at 10:40 PM
The Water Doctor Replied: Dan, Small amounts of salt will not be detrimental to your septic system, which is why I recommend a system like the Fusion which keeps salt and water usage to a minimum: https://www.uswatersystems.com/matrixx-water-softener-with-smartphone-programming.html
Bill
May 22, 2010 at 8:34 PM
I've enjoyingly read through all these comments. I've been selling electronic de-scalers for seven years and never had one returned. I've seen faucet screens and garden hose spray nozzles plug up with scale after installing a de-scaler. I have installed units for customers that doubted if they worked and told them to pay when/if they were satisfied. Every one of them came into my store and paid me. You might want to check out: http://www.h2oconcepts.com/pdf/IAPMO.pdf I don't know your opinion of IAPMO, but I believe they are a very reliable testing lab. By the way, I sell TAC these days and have a good opinion of this technology. The world is changing and water softeners are bad. The WQA is losing their war. The "Hey Culligan man!!" is dead. So is Servisoft (I worked for them during college). I manufacture aerobic treatment plants and water softeners are bad for them too. A Fusion will void the warranty. Water softener's days are numbered. <strong>The Water Doctor Replied: OK, I'll bite. Sodium is undesirable, in a vacuum, but we don't live in a vacuum and oftentimes when we try and solve one problem, we create another. If sodium is undesirable, then what about the additional 50-60% more soap, phosphates, detergents, bleach, water conditioners and chemicals you have to use without softened water? What about Lime-Away? Are you saying that sodium is bad, but that's not?</strong>
jim
May 26, 2010 at 6:41 AM
I have been wanting to get a water conditioner for my home and someone told me about this product that can be found on this web site www.equinox-products.com but does it work and has anyone ever used this product or is it a gimmick..
Dean
June 6, 2010 at 6:38 PM
Hey Mark, I read this thread with great interest, and I thank you and all the others for a lot of good information and comment. I have done some of the research you have suggested, and find that everything you say is right on target. Out city water is very hard, and contains some chlorine. I want to be able to drink the water out of every faucet in my home, and am not too concerned about it being hard. From what I gleen from my reading of this thread, I should simply get a good filtration system, that takes out the chlorine and other VOC material....and possibly a salt-free "conditioner" that WORKS! :) Am I on target? I would appreciate your opinion on which systems work the best...also! Thanks for the time you take to educate folks, Dean <strong>The Water Doctor Replied: </strong> Dean, Your are correct. Sorry it took me so long to respond. I have just been swamped (which is good). Here’s a suggestion: https://www.uswatersystems.com/systems/salt-free-water-conditioners For Drinking water: https://www.uswatersystems.com/aquapurion-plus-5-stage-reverse-osmosis-system.html
Michael
June 11, 2010 at 4:45 PM
For those still wondering about devices based on nano-crystals, (or saltless water conditioners) I finally got an somewhat interesting response from a seller of such products. Since our conversation was in German here is a machine translation: "In the formation and growth of crystals of a substance is a phase transition from the dissolved (liquid) instead of the solid state. This crystallization can occur only if the solution is saturated or supersaturated easy. On the surface of the anti-lime granules is effected by corresponding surface forces, a local supersaturation of calcium and carbonate ions. Through this supersaturation leads to the formation of calcium carbonate crystals (lime). Before we added the anti-lime granules in our product range, we have so treated water was filtered through a filter with 0.2 micron pore refinement. In measuring the total hardness before and after the anti-lime granules, we have a reduction of total hardness (lime) of about 10 - found 15% (there were several series of tests performed). That is, a part of the dissolved lime is converted into the solid phase (crystals), so that this part could be filtered off. The main part remains dissolved in the water. If there is further deposits of limestone, for example, by heating the water, we find this separation preferred instead to the seed crystals, so that will be protected, for example, heating elements of flushing or washing machine. Whether this theoretical model of explanation is in all questions of detail 100% scientifically proven strength, we do not know. Through the experiment conducted by us us, however, appeared plausible. Our past experience and the feedback of customers have also confirmed." I am still waiting for independent scientists in this particular field to publish their findings. With regards, Michael <strong>The Water Doctor Replied: Still no definitive answers. Just more questions.</strong>
mark
June 29, 2010 at 4:55 PM
Ruth, We have found that the electronic systems are generally "scams." I have tested them all and have not found one good enough to sell. This does work: https://www.uswatersystems.com/systems/salt-free-water-conditioners
Angel
July 25, 2010 at 9:38 AM
Shopping around for salt-less systems and found Pelican NaturSoft System has been tested and fulfilled the requirements of the W512. I pulled this statement off there website, what do you think between Pelician and USwatersystems?
Edith
July 25, 2010 at 3:08 PM
I bought a non salt water softener, Excalibur of Barrie Ontario. it was not called a conditioner. It was sold to me by Brian Nogler.. PURE WATER AND AIR SOLUTIONS. I was guaranteed to have my money refunded if it did not live up to manufacturers specification. He returned every month to check and see how it was working. IT DID NOT WORK!! I repeatedly asked to have it removed which was not done. So the Excalibur softener and the company, both are not any good.
Jeremy
August 10, 2010 at 3:43 PM
Mark, I have a home with a dug or shallow well. I had a water softener that used salt but my water always had a smell and I had to change filters very frequently. My salt-based system sprung a leak in the water tank and I'm now looking to replace it. What is your best recommendation? Should I stick with salt-based or do you have another suggestion? I do plan to have a new well drilled at some point but it will rely totally on finances.
jam soft
December 27, 2019 at 2:22 AM
Nice information shared, as water is very important for our health and body, always use purified water